Welcome to Explore Teach
Conserve, or the ETC

podcast by the University
of Minnesota Extension,

where we talk with
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This is an older
episode from when we

used a different
title, The Naturalist,

but the conversation and ideas

are still fresh.
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episodes of Explore, Teach,
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Hi, I'm Santiago from
U of M Extension, and

this is The Naturalist.
It podcasts that

aims to explore the
various topics within

the world of Minnesota
natural resources,

all while trying to
capture great stories

and talk to people
about the environment.

This week, we talk with
Matt Russell and Johanna to

pray about white-tailed deer
populations in Minnesota,

their impacts and how
they're being studied.

I'm Matt Russell. I'm
an assistant professor

and extension specialist
with the University

of Minnesota, Department
of Forest Resources,

and I'm based on
the St. Paul campus.

All right, Matt. So
one of the things

I was really
interesting about was,

you know, looking at the
current deer population

distributions within the state
and what that looks like.

Do you have an idea of
what current populations

where they are and within
the state? Yeah, so the

deer populations in Minnesota
are extremely variable.

Okay. And so you will hear
that from deer hunters

that go out and hunt deer
regularly. But in general,

many of our forested
portions of the

state are heavily
populated by deer.

So a lot of deer in kind
of the north-central region

of Minnesota, as you get
into northeastern Minnesota.

So it really depends on
how many deer. On average,

if you look at the trends
and how many deer have

been harvested, or across
the state of Minnesota.

In the last several years,

it's been around 200,000 deer,

plus or minus,

several thousand deer.

But in general, that's
kind of what deer

populations are looking
like across Minnesota.

Okay, now can you kind
of talk about more

about why that is? You
know, why do the deer

populations tend to
go to these regions?

Yeah, well, deer like to eat.

So they're gonna,
their habitat is mostly

gonna be where they
have diverse habitat.

So if one plant that
they normally eat isn't

around, they'll have options
for other kinds of plants

and acorns and grasses
and things like that.

So deer will really
strategically seek

out areas where they
have food sources.

And so forests are
a good example of a

habitat that provides
abundant food sources.

So deer really seek
areas with mass

-producing tree, mass
-producing trees,

so things like
oaks that provide

acorns, hickories,
things like that,

and they'll also eat the
foliage of some trees

in addition to lots
of shrubs that are out

there, lots of grasses
and then things like

that. So a smart deer
is going to be one that

really seeks out a
habitat with diverse kinds

of things that it can
have in its diet. Great.

Also,

I heard about, I'm not
sure how accurate this

is, but I've heard about
deer populations moving

away from, like, hunting
locations as well.

I don't know if that's
been observed or, you

know, do they kind of
stay away from danger?

They can. I mean, they
do in some senses.

In some cases, you
know, deer or, you know,

see very few people,
you know, in road areas.

And in that case, You
know, they can be, seeing

people can deter them
from sticking around.

But in other areas,
particularly in communities,

deer are almost becoming,
you know, the backyard pet.

And so a lot of people,

you see deer on a
daily basis or several

times a day, depending
on where they live.

And so it really depends
on the area. And again,

really what the food
sources are available

and really what the deer
become accustomed to.

But if we look at the
history of deer in Minnesota,

deer used to only. really
be in the southern part

of the state before
settlement and eventually they

kind of moved into a kind
of a narrow band along

with moose and caribou
in the late 1800s until

now where we're really
seeing deer really across

the whole entire state so
it's very interesting to

look at deer populations
and how they've compared

to moose and caribou
populations as we look at

the history of deer in
Minnesota given current

conditions what type of
potential for change within,

you know, distribution
of deer? Do you see,

do you see greater
movement north, or

do you see greater
moving to the east? Or,

you know, what do you
see along those lines

happening, you know, going
forward here in Minnesota?

Yeah, that's a great question.

You know, in Minnesota, we have

about 17 million
acres of forest,

and that's increased
a little bit over

recent decades. So
as long as we're

kind of keeping our
forest forested,

there's going to continue to be

deer habitat into the future.

And so when we look at things
that are that are changing

our landscape, when we
think about climate change,

as an example,

there are several people
that are trying more hardwood

species that are more adapted
to Minnesota's climate.

And so the idea is if
those species that maybe

previously weren't that
abundant across our landscape,

but they serve as
good deer habitat.

Maybe they're a
mass producing tree.

Maybe they provide some brows

for that, for that deer.

It could mean that, you
know, we could potentially

alter our forests and the
way that we're managing

them to be either better
places for deer habitat

or maybe not as good for
deer habitat. So that all

depends on kind of which
species kind of come out

on top when we think about
planning for the future.

And importantly, how
our forests regenerates.

There's how a new forest
grows beneath an old forest

to provide the kind of next
habitat, that next generation

of habitat for the deer
and also plant sources and

browse for the deer as well.
When you think of forest,

I feel like some people forget

about the impacts of deer.

And then you also start
thinking about the other

impacts like invasives
like Amel Dashpor and other

invasives that are taken
over. some parts and it just

paints a picture that you
know these forests are very

delicate and going forward
it's going to be interesting

to see how they change
yeah and I'm really glad

you brought up the point
about invasive species

unfortunately deer for the
most part do not like to

browse and do not like to
eat those invasive species

you know I'm thinking of
plants like buckthorn and

garlic mustard which are
a lot of big problems that

landowners are dealing
with across the state but

there is an interesting
kind of relationship between

invasive plants and the
presence of deer there

have been studies shown that
you can see more abundant

invasive plants in areas
where there are higher

deer populations and that
can be related to the

indirect effects that deer
have on the landscape so

as an example of that so
deer will not eat garlic

mustard a common invasive
plant that we see a lot

an essential and southeastern
part of the state.

But what they can do
is they can disturb the

soil as they're going
around browsing other

things and potentially
move that seed around

as they're disturbing
the soil as

they're moving around.
So it's easy to

think about the
direct effects. Well,

this deer brows,
this tree seedling

and that tree seedling died.

But there are also those
indirect effects. You know,

what kind of influence do
deer have on the ecosystem

just based on, you know,
kind of the damage that

they're doing by disturbing
soil, walking around,

and things like that.
So those relationships

are really some of the
most complex and really

what we don't know a
lot about when we look

at the scientific
literature about the impact

of deer, particularly
in forested ecosystems.

Right, you know,
a lot of indirect

consequences of
deer populations.

You know, kindergarten care.

I've also heard about how,

you know, they do browse,

you know, kind of
changes the available

real estate for
birds and stuff like

that along the line,
you know, right?

Exactly, yeah.

Yeah, I think of one
species that a lot of forest

managers have difficulty
in getting from seedling

to mature tree, and
that's the eastern white

pine, which is a tree
that has a large legacy in

Minnesota as a lot of the
early harvesting of timber

was eastern white pine
that helped to build the

seas like Minneapolis
and St. Paul and Chicago

and Milwaukee. And a lot
of those came from the

northern part of the state,
those white pine trees.

And so eastern white pine
is a tree that deer like

to browse. You know, its
buds are high in nutrients.

And so they're going to
selectively kind of look

for those eastern white
pine trees and browse

them. And so So the role
in that is that, you know,

as forest managers, we
can protect seedlings and

put some investment
into establishing those

seedlings and making sure
they get out of the range

of deer so that they can
eventually become mature

and healthy trees that
can provide habitat for

birds and other mammals
and then things like that.

So that's really the role
that forest managers play,

and trying to not only
protect those trees from deer,

but also to protect those
trees that they eventually

become healthy, healthy
trees that provide a number

of other benefits to
wildlife and a lot of the

other things that we rely
on when we look at forests.

So another question for
you was, you know, or,

so I guess we briefly
touched about increased,

potential increase and
decrease of the population,

how that really is relying
on available browse.

But is there high potential
right now to see major

number spikes or is it kind
of steadily increasing or

steadily decreasing within
the state of Minnesota?

Yeah, well,

historically one of the
best ways to kind of keep

a check on the deer population
is, you know, setting

accurate harvest levels
for white-tailed deer.

And so the Minnesota
Department of Natural Resources

is really tasked with
that. As deer hunters,

They say, I'm going to
hunt in this wildlife

management unit and, you
know, kind of look at, you

know, well, how many
deer can I harvest here?

That's really a great
strategy in keeping deer

numbers in check and one
that's been used for a number

of years in Minnesota and
in other states as well.

And so in doing that,
they're able to really look

at, yeah, sure, on a broad
scale, we can look at,

you know, trends in deer
populations in Minnesota.

about when you're
thinking about, well, you

know, the 40 acres, my
family hunts on every fall,

we want good deer numbers
there because we hunt there.

And so they can really
hone in on, well, in this

wildlife management unit here,
the factors going around.

There may have been
a harsh winter, which

would affect, you
know, the fawns that

become available and
are born in the spring.

And so maybe we reduce
the deer numbers in that

area, but might increase
them where in an area that

didn't see as bad of a
winter or has more abundant

food sources that, you
know, helps white-tailed

deer to survive. So, really,
we can rely on our state

agencies to help to
provide guidance on setting

those harvest levels for
specific areas, and that's

just a great way to keep
deer numbers in check.

Okay.

Now, outside of hunting,

you know, what are some of
the interactions that, you

know, the regular public
have when dealing with deer?

A lot of people just think
of deer as being kind of

a hunting thing within the
state. But driving down

here to the cities, I also
noticed a lot of roadkill.

So, yeah, what are some
of those relationships

outside of just hunting
that the Minnesota

public deals with
when it comes to deer?

Yeah, it's a great
question. And, you know, a

lot of the things that
a lot of communities are

dealing with is, you
know, deer being a part of

the community, really.
And so there's a lot

of efforts now ongoing
with, I know Cornell

University is involved
and the Nature Conservancy

is involved in a large
project about, you know,

how do we as a community
prepare and adapt

ourselves to, you know,
perhaps overabundant

deer populations that
live in our community.

And there's a number
of great projects

going on in that area.
I know in the city

of Duluth, they've
scheduled a very successful

bow hunt within
the city limits to,

try to keep their populations

in check for white-tailed deer.

And so examples like
that are really critical.

When I think about
the adverse effects of

deer like deer vehicle
collisions is a big one.

You know, as people run
into deer, you know,

and deer are a problem
and can cause, you know,

a lot of problems to
our cars and to other

resources. Of course, that's
something that insurance

companies like that
sell you insurance. but

there is certainly a
human factor to that too.

And then we think
of the risk of Lyme

disease. You know, deer
can carry ticks and

can serve as a vector
for Lyme disease.

And so when you start thinking
about those two things,

that is deer vehicle
collisions and Lyme disease,

it's not really just the
deer populations that

we're concerned about, but
we're concerned with, you

know, human health now
being a component of a

problem or a management
issue around deer. And so all

those things we've got to
think about when we start

thinking about what deer
population should be,

when we start thinking
about hunting levels and

harvest levels that are
appropriate for deer.

All right.

Now,

you know, we talked a lot
about Minnesota and the

trends of Minnesota and
what we're seeing in

Minnesota, but it'd be
interesting to talk a little

bit about how the numbers
here compare to our

neighboring states, such
as Wisconsin and Michigan.

because I've heard that
they have some deer,

not issues, but
they're dealing with

deer on a statewide
level as well. So

can you talk a little
bit about that?

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly
right. Yeah, states like

Michigan and Wisconsin
are certainly dealing

with the deer issue, just
like we are in Minnesota.

In general, there are
actually more deer in our

neighbor in Wisconsin
than we have in Minnesota.

And the general reason
for that is just because

the habitat is just
quite a bit different.

So in Minnesota we have a
lot more conifer-dominated

forest. You know, think of
kind of the boundary waters

in northern Minnesota
and kind of really at the

southern edge of that boreal
forest, whereas I don't have

that as much in Wisconsin.
Wisconsin, they have a lot

more hardwood species, a
lot more mass-producing

species. So deer can rely
on things like oak acorns in

addition to some other plants
and grasses that are of

And other states have done
lots of other programs.

Wisconsin has a great
program working with

landowners to know more
about deer populations.

And so in Minnesota we
can learn a lot from our

neighboring states in terms
of what's worked with for them

in the past and managing deer
and kind of just learning

about the issues that
they're facing as a state.

It's really interesting.

Now bringing you kind
of back to Minnesota,

going forward, are
there any goals?

kind of statewide for
kind of dealing with deer

within the state and like
you said there's a lot of

information and kind of
tips that the state could

take from from our neighbors
as a state you know

what are some of the goals
that you know organizations

like the DNR are doing
yeah so as we speak

there's in the works is a
deer management plan being

developed that's being
led by the Minnesota DNR.

And so that plan
is kind of being

comprised of an
advisory committee,

and that committee has a
number of people representing

forest industry and the
DNR and county agencies,

in addition to conservation
groups like the Minnesota

Deer Hunters Association
and the Nature Conservancy.

And so the end goal is
really a basically a

deer management plan for
the state of Minnesota.

And it's not necessarily,

from my understanding,
kind of what are we going

to do in this county, you
know, in this wildlife

management unit? But
it's really more of a 30

,000 foot level, you know,
what can we be doing?

How does some of the modeling
that we do to estimate

these deer densities, how
can we improve that? what

other resources might we
need to, you know, come up

with these numbers in a
scientifically rigorous way?

But also, how can we
still, you know, provide

hunting opportunities for
people in Minnesota? How can

we still provide, you
know, the forest resources

that we need in terms of,
you know, providing to

forest industry, the wood
and the forest products

that we rely on in terms
of our economy and just

our way of life? So it'll
be interesting. The next

year or two is very
interesting when it comes to

kind of looking at the
future of deer in Minnesota.

This management plan that
the DNR is helping to

develop is going to provide
a lot of insight into that.

Wow.

So it seems like a
very complex situation.

But very interesting
to say it at the least.

It feels like, you
know, there's a lot

of unanswered
questions right now and

they're trying to
address all that.

Outside of that, are
there, you know, are

there other research
groups within the state

that are kind of of
focusing in on any specific

details or some other
goals to like update,

you know, deer characteristics,
what they're looking

at in terms of browsing or
anything along those terms?

Yeah, well, several of us
here at the University of

Minnesota are looking into
kind of the relationships

between deer and forest
habitat, and that's going

to continue to be a big
issue and a big, a lot of

research questions are kind
of developing around that.

And related to
that, it's really

getting a sense of, you know,

how much do you have to
invest into regenerating

a forest to have it
be healthy and mature

and perhaps avoid deer
brows along the way?

And so that's a big
question that we

get a lot of questions
from foresters

and other natural
resource professionals to

try to answer that
question about, you know,

is it if I spent $20 an
acre to protect a forest,

forest, is that enough?
It does have to be

$100 an acre or should I
just fence my whole forest

around? And so obviously
that's not economical

to fenced large areas,
but we're really trying

to find that sweet spot
of doing enough management

so that you can really
protect the forest

by maintaining that
deer density that

you want for hunting
opportunities.

And so other work going on
involves really information

that's coming out of this
deer management group. I

think that they're going to
provide a lot of research

questions and a lot of
impetus for others to kind of

look at, you know, at a
state level, you know, what

should we be doing, where
are the research gaps, where

are the knowledge gaps
that we really ought to be

studying to get a better
handle of, you know, what deer,

how deer are benefiting
our ecosystems and how

they might be impeding
our ecosystems. So a

lot of information is
going to be coming out

within the next year or
two about some of those

challenges that lie
ahead. All right. Well,

I think that wraps it up
for any questions I had.

And I just want to
thank you for taking

part in this
conversation about deer.

Thanks. It was
great being here.

According to information
found on the DNR's

website, a draft of the
state's Deer Management Plan

will be finalized and
released on December 13.

Topics covered during
the committee meetings

included deer and
habitat health, funding,

monitoring,

and hunter. and non
-hunter satisfaction.

More materials regarding
the management plan

can be found online
on the DNR's website.

My name is Johanna DePray.

I'm a program coordinator at
the University of Minnesota

Extension for a forester
and wildlife department.

I am currently working on a

project, a citizen
science project,

that will help us monitor

deer populations in Minnesota.

Well, that sounds really cool.

How long have you
been working on

those projects
out of curiosity?

So we are currently in
the development phase.

I have been working on this
for a couple months now,

but we're trying to
get a sense of what

people are interested
in and what kind of

project people want to
participate in. So we're

still working on it
and moving forward.

What are researchers within
the state, you're very

curious about whether or
like the very specific things

about deer that research
is being conducted. So

I think deer are very
important to a lot of people.

You know, for people
who like to be outside

and like to, you
know, be in nature,

they really enjoy seeing
deer and they really

enjoy, and that's
kind of what you think

of when you think of
being out in nature.

But it's also, deer are also
really important because

they do have such a strong
impact on our forests.

And so people who care about

regenerating our forests,

people who care about having,

you know, ensuring that we
have sustainable timber so

we can continue to have
timber sales in the future.

people who just
want to be able to

have productive
forest on their lands.

All of those people really
care about, you know,

increasing deer populations
or could potentially

care about increasing
deer populations because

deer have such a strong
influence on our forest.

And so I think a lot of
work is being done on,

you know, what kind of
impact deer directly do have

on forests, and a lot
of work is being done on

how can we prevent
deer from harvesting on

important seedlings that
we're trying to regenerate.

In many parts of the
U.S., for example,

there's a difficulty
in regenerating

oak trees and deer eat oak.

And so understanding
how we could maybe

stop deer from eating
oak is important.

And so it's just, it's
basically understanding

how with increasing
deer populations,

we want to understand how,
what kind of role of deer

play in the ecosystem and
what kind of work we can do

to maintain deer that
everybody love and cares about,

but also make sure that we're
having productive for us.

When was the last
major deer survey done

to try to figure out
population dynamics?

Well,

so every year the
Minnesota DNR will

monitor deer harvest
each hunting season.

So they actually
have a pretty good

record of at least
what was harvested in

Minnesota during
the hunting season.

And so they can get a good
sense of what is happening

with the population, if
it's increasing, if it's

decreasing. And I know
that they basically can

have figured out a way to
estimate the population or

at least estimate it if it's
increasing or decreasing

based on the numbers
that are being harvested.

Going off that,

what are some of
the major challenges

associated with trying
to keep track of deer?

So part of what makes
it hard about deer

is kind of as you
mentioned, that they

don't really want
to be around people.

And they try to avoid
people as much as possible,

and they do move around.

But you can't just go out
and count your populations

because we don't see all of

the deer that are out there.

So we have to come up with ways

that can estimate
deer populations,

which is what the
D&R was doing.

Another method that some
people use is, If you're

not actually worried
about the number of deer,

but if you're worried
about the impact of deer,

some people will look for

environmental
indicators of deer.

So this can be anywhere
from going out in the woods

and trying to look for
areas, look for deer browse.

When a deer browses
off a plant,

you can see the rip of
the leaf or the rip of

the bud, so you can
see the evidence of it.

You can also, there are
other, environmental

indicators for example if
you see a brow line which is

essentially a line in the
understory of the forest

where approximately less
than five feet there's very

few understory plants that
can indicate that there

are heavy deer populations
in the area and so if

you're not actually
worried about the number of

deer but you're worried
about the impact that deer

are happening there are
other methods that you can

look for to try to understand
what's happening and

understand if you do have
heavy deer populations.

That's it for this episode
of the matches. We've

been talking with Matt
Russell and Johanna DePray

about the impacts of deer
on Minnesota life and

the efforts being made to
better understand them.

Thank you all for listening
and have a great day.