Margot DeWilde: Thank
you for coming.

The introduction,
you had already,

that I was born in Berlin.

I had one brother,
and in 1932, indeed,

we moved to Holland
because my mother

got entangled in a group of

youngsters who were calling

slogans and were
rowdy in Berlin,

and my father had
been working from

Holland in some
representation of factories.

He came home every time when
he had been on the road.

My mother said to
him, she didn't want

to stay in Berlin
anymore with the kids,

he had to see that we
come to Holland too,

which we did in June 1932.

We went to school there.

The times were very hard because

not only for the immigrants,

but also for the
people themselves,

there was depression
and unemployment,

and the only way

the immigrants from Germany

were frowned a little bit about,

but that there were some
more people wanting jobs.

But, in general, there
was no anti-semitism.

There were a lot of
Jewish expressions

used in the Dutch language,

daily use of words
and expressions,

which were mostly humorous.

My mother, on the
advice of her sister,

came back to Berlin
to learn a trade.

She had never
worked in her life.

She learned how to
make intimate apparel

for heavyset women.

You couldn't buy
that in those years,

so you had to have
it made to measure.

With this, she kept our
family fairly decently going.

I had to leave the
art school when I was

15 1/2 and do the households.

My father had been taking
care of it partly,

but now he didn't want
to do that anymore,

he was the assistant of

my mother in bookkeeping
and whatever.

I had to leave school.

I was not the nicest thing,

but anyway, it happened.

I had little side
jobs, babysitting,

library arranging for somebody
who was printing books,

mending socks,
mending all kinds of

things for 10 cents an hour.

I could keep my money,

but I had to buy my clothes
and extras for myself.

The only thing which I
established at that time,

I bought the second-hand
bike for $10, 10 Guilders,

but I had a flat tire every
corner of the street,

so I had a set of spoons from

the kitchen with me
and some patches,

and the glue to put a patch on,

and I became quite handy
in taking tire off

practically every corner and
put a patch on and went on.

My first memory of the result of

my working was two new
tires for my bicycle.

I can still smell the scent
of the bicycle store.

Well, anyway, that
just was the idea of

giving an example
how we used to live.

We didn't have anything,

what people have nowadays.

We had to improvise games to

play on the streets and
in the open fields.

Do it yourself, not like
everybody getting everything,

what you want nowadays.

But we grew up too.

In 1940, I was at the
Kibbutz in Holland.

It was a Kibbutz where people
from Germany had come,

young people waiting to go
to Palestine, Israel now.

I had gotten engaged to

a young man who was
very religious.

I have been brought up reform,

so I had to learn the ways of
keeping house and cooking,

and whatever from
the orthodox part.

There were about 30
guys there and we were

four girls taking care of
the household, the cooking,

the washing, and in between,

also went to farmers
to help in harvesting,

in my case, strawberries.

When the Germans came,

I was there, my parents
were in Holland,

was my fiancee was inducted
in the Dutch Army,

and the people from
the Kibbutz decided,

we got to get out of here.

We were close to a port
city and walked to

that port where beforehand,

the Queen and the cabinet
had left for England,

illusionary trying
to get a boat,

a ship, or whatever
to get to England.

But, of course, you needed
a lot of money to do that,

that had priority and we
didn't stand a chance.

I was the only one who was happy

about it because I
had my family there,

the other people didn't
have any connection.

After a while I went
home and stayed home,

and then the Germans
started putting in,

after the three-day war,

the fourth day,
Holland surrendered.

In the beginning,
the Germans did

not do anything which
would be outstanding,

they didn't mingle
with things or

putting in orders or whatever,

but the first thing they
did was install a group

of formerly important
people from

the society to serve
as their order takers.

The Germans themselves
did very little,

but they gave this committee

the orders which
have to be done.

First, it started with every Jew

had to bring its radios in,

the bank accounts numbers,

the cars were out
of the possibility.

It was later done to

the complete people of
the occupied countries,

but the Jews were
the first ones where

they experimented
with how to do it.

In 1941,

the family of my husband

got their visas to
the United States,

which they had applied right

after the war ended in Holland.

The visas came in the day
Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Now, there was no
chance to get out of

the country anymore because

now America was
involved in the war.

In contract of what the
other countries had so far,

they could still go someplace,

but there was no way to
go anyplace anymore.

To Spain, that
would be one thing,

and Portugal, unoccupied part

of France, but it wasn't safe.

My two brothers-in-law
were both both attorneys,

made contact with a
high-placed German officer,

and through the intermission of

a Swiss young man who was
befriended with these officers,

they managed to
try to buy us out.

The money was already in
other countries, otherwise,

we wouldn't have gotten our
visas either for America.

They promised a decent amount

of money in order to let us go.

In between time, all Dutchmen

had to come and get their
identification papers,

like the old-fashioned
driver's license

with a picture and two
thumbprints on it.

I think it's on there.

That's there when
the thumbprints are.

The underground started by
first soliciting at people,

not Jewish people,

to surrender their
identification cards,

and then I amongst them,

started falsifying
them by soaking

the picture part off because
on the other side was

that thumbprint and
replacing it with

the picture of the person
who got those papers,

and they became a
different person then,

not Jewish and had to be very
aware what name they had,

where they were living, and

some background of the families.

I myself had one and
I went shopping at

anytime when the Jewish people

were not allowed
to shop anymore.

They had to go to certain
stores at certain times,

no public transportation,
no schools,

only a few Jewish schools.

University of my
husband was over,

everything was limited
and restricted.

With that, restriction
came also with the papers,

a big yellow star, which you

had to wear on your
outdoor clothing.

I had mine on a raincoat.

I haven't got it
here, like a doll,

and took my raincoat
over my arm to go

to any place where I was

not supposed to
go with the star.

Only one time, my father got

some warning that if they

would see me again
without a star,

then they would call the police,

so I had to stay away from
our old neighborhood,

not to be too much pressuring
other people to do things.

In September '42,

my brother got his notice that
he had to come and present

himself to be sent

to another country to be
working for the Germans.

They had made nice stories like

the families could go
together and could live

together and could build
their own lives again

in an uncivilized part of

Europe which didn't have
too many people there.

You believed it, but still
were sarcastic about it.

I must say, the Germans
had put a system

in where one person couldn't
trust the other anymore,

so very little cheeped out.

It was kept, everything,

in secret because the people

themselves were not
supposed to know it.

My father sometimes played cards

with a group of men
and one of them,

but not Jewish, had a
brother in the army.

From that brother, he
heard some information,

even the soldiers didn't
know too much about it,

but he heard that there
was gas used someplace.

In total,

the first call was for

young men to build
something someplace else.

Turned out to be they were

the ones who started building
the concentration camps,

and we never heard
of them again.

Then when my brother
got the call,

we decided my parents
had to go into hiding.

My mother went on
a farm in Holland,

my father had his card playing

companies who wanted
only to take one person,

and my brother had to
go someplace where

it turned out was not safe,

came to my in-laws house and
told me that it wasn't safe,

so he went to an address
where we had rented

a room some time ago when
my husband was still

in the university to
be easier accessible,

had furnished it, and

that's where my brother
went into hiding.

It turned out that this house

later became an
in-between place for

shut-down pilots and
heavy underground work.

My mother couldn't
speak too well Dutch.

She always tried to bribe
us kids to teach her,

but we didn't have
the patience to.

In order to be visible in
that small town on the farm,

we had said, well,

she was a poor bombed-out
woman from Rotterdam.

Amongst that Rotterdam
was the cause of

surrendering because they
had bombed it very much.

The farm people said
she was a relative,

and from the shock of

the bombardment where
she lost everything,

she had lost her
way of speaking,

so she had to keep her
mouth shut at all times.

Even on her false papers,

I had put down
speech impairment.

For my mother, it was okay.

But later, all the people in

that area were evacuated
by the Germans,

and she finished up
with my brother in

this place which
we had furnished.

But in that time,

we had gotten the visas which

my in-laws had applied for for

the United States right

away after the war
started in Holland.

We got the visas at the day
that Pearl Harbor was bombed,

so it was no way
of going anymore.

My brothers-in-law
had taken contact

with this young man to
get us out, and finally,

after my parents were in hiding,

my father had gotten
some valuables,

not much out of the house.

There's more involved to it,

but that doesn't have to do
with the story too much.

They were in hiding
and we were going

to go and look some
other way to get out.

He made contact with
a high officer.

We were not called like

other people to come and
present ourselves in

a collection camp to go east

to be transferred
to another area.

We got married because we

thought if we would
have the same name,

we should stay together.

But we never had a
religious ceremony.

That was for when he had

his doctorate and we
would be normal again.

But my one brother-in-law
was married to

a non-Jewish woman
and they had a baby

just before we were
told to leave.

The message came
through that she

could not come along
with the baby.

It would be too
tiresome for her.

A big red flag.

Nobody saw it.

We were ordered,
told to come with

one suitcase each to the
central station in Amsterdam,

where we would go with the
express train to Switzerland.

I remember my father
standing without

a star in the back in

the railroad station,
blinking me goodbye.

You couldn't even gesture to

each other because
that would have been

dangerous and we were

placed in a reserved
train compartment.

The train had a hallway and

all little compartments with

sliding doors and
some windows in it,

and they had reserved one
for us and another family.

Mother, father, son,
and daughter, our age.

They turned out to be

diamond people and had

the money to buy
themselves free, too.

Of course, my in laws
my mother in law,

father in law had died already.

My mother in law
had to surrender

the possession of goods
in the other countries.

She had to give written
or whatever notice.

I was not involved in it,

so I didn't know and
when we were in a train,

that German came by.

He was in Civics,

not in our compartment.

I said, Listen, when we get
to the first German city,

you have to get out
because you have to get

your Swiss visas
and your passports.

If you're geared to one thing,

you don't hear, see,
or know anything.

That should have been for us

the notice that is a lost case.

Because if there would be a
Swiss consulate in Germany,

it would have been
in Holland too.

I was a neutral country.

As soon as we stepped
out of the train,

we got arrested by the Gestapo,

taken to the Gestapo prison,

and separately kept and

interrogated that they wanted

to try to find out
where was the money.

We didn't know
anything so called.

After three days,
they let us go,

meaning that we were taken to

a box car in Cologne
on the station,

where they had already
raided for other people

to catch Jewish people
and we were sent with,

I don't know how many
people were in there.

I'm very bad in figures
guessing. I never did.

We were sent with a group of

German Jews to the central
point in Germany, Berlin.

Berlin was boys school,

a former Jewish boys school,

of which I knew that

the brother a friend of my
mother's from childhood on,

had been the headmaster there.

When we arrived in this place,

you didn't know where you were
going, what was happening.

I asked if some of

my German relatives by any
chance, were still there,

and I heard that my
uncle and family

was just deported
a few weeks ago.

But that friend of my
mother's friend the brother,

he was in charge of this place.

I went downstairs to his office,

knocked on the door and came
in and introduced myself.

He fell off his
chair practically.

What are you doing
here? How come?

How come did you come here?

We told him a little bit,

and he couldn't do a thing
because he had to send

his mother to a camp
already a week ago.

But he could choose a
different camp for her,

of course, which was probably
not as bad as the other.

He couldn't do a thing.

The friend of my mother's
was obviously working for

him and she came and
visited us twice,

but that was all I saw of her.

We didn't have any chance there.

But that same day,

a Dutch truck driver came to

that building delivering goods.

We heard the Dutch
people calling.

We went there and we
got in touch with him.

He gave me his
address in Berlin.

If we could get out
of the building,

we should come there.

They would help us further.

He asked if I wanted some
message to send to somebody,

and I wrote a long
letter to my parents.

Delivered to the in between

address of where my
father was hiding.

This was a Danish woman who was

living in the lower apartment

and my father was hiding in

the upper apartment
of that building.

He took the letter to

this address so my father
knew what was going on.

My mother was in the country,

so he wasn't in touch
with her either.

He saw to it that my aunt from

Switzerland sent some packages

and some money to the camp,

which my husband and
his family received

because I was in the
meantime had a sore throat,

got to the nurse,

was put aside and was
told I had scarlet fever.

I had to go for quarantine
to the Jewish Hospital.

Meanwhile, I learned
that there was a

Dr. Lustig and Lustig
is my maiden name.

Dr. Lustig was in the building,

and I went to him and
asked him for help.

He didn't want anything
to do with me.

He had enough troubles
himself, so that was out.

But when I was put aside in
that sick room in the school,

there was another
young doctor who said,

Well, I'll take you
to the hospital.

His name was Dr. Erlich,

and he was that means

honest and he was really
a nice odd honest guy.

I finished up in
the hospital with

another Jewish young woman
who was white Russian.

At that time, the White
Russians were still

protected by the Germans that
they were not enemies yet.

The Jewish White Russians
were not enemies either.

Her mother came and
visited often and

brought things and took
cards and notes for me,

written like her daughter
would have written it,

explaining in code, more
or less, what happened?

You would write, for instance,

such and such is
with such and such,

with the other such and
such was dead already.

Then they knew that person had

died or was gone, whatever.

Then that went on for six weeks.

I was sent back to

the collection camp from the
hospital and a week later,

my husband was there,

but my two brothers in law
and my mother in law had

sent has been sent
on a transport East.

My husband was kept
there to wait for me.

How generous and we were
sent the two of us together

with a whole group of
German Jews back East.

It took longer than
any train ride

would take because in Germany,

the wheels for the army
had to roll first and then

every train was put on

a side rail and had to wait
until those wheels were gone,

and that's what took a
longer time to get there.

We were in a box car,

a closed box car in this case.

We had a bucket for a facility,

but nothing else and our
suitcases went with it.

Everybody had to take one
suitcase and they came with us.

After about the day,

no, we were put there in
the afternoon, I guess.

The night and the next morning,

we got to the stop.

It turned out to be
a railroad station,

and I could see the signs of it

Auschwitz after they had rolled

back the doors from the box
car and took the bar off,

which closed it and
told everybody in

very unpolite ways to
get out, get going.

People were streaming
out of this box car.

People who had died in between,

were between the people
carried out by the masses,

and we had to get out.

In front of this Train depot was

a decent good looking German
officer standing uniform,

SS uniform, pistol, a
whip in his other hand,

riding boots, but in total,

looking like a very
well kept man.

Later we learned this
was Dr. Mengele.

Mengele after first select
splitting up all the groups of

persons out of the box
car to women to one side,

men to another side,

old people to another group,

women with children
to another group.

He told a group of

women that young married
women should step forward.

I think he took 24 of this
group and I was amongst them.

I didn't have the chance
to say goodbye to anybody.

I didn't see to which
group they were taken.

We were put on a truck and
taken to a big building,

which later turned out to be

the shower building where
all people were gathered.

We had to take our clothes off.

Our hair was shaved off.

We got a cold shower,

had to leave our clothes there,

and were taken with clothes

thrown at us from
the transports.

The clothing which was
the least desirable,

we were put in civic clothes,

not prison clothes like
the people mostly had,

a blue and white striped jacket,

and I think pants
too or dark pants.

I don't remember that,

but we had normal clothing.

We were taken to a big building
in a bunch of barracks.

You could see the main street
and on both sides from

the streets were
brick buildings.

What you learned later was
these were the barracks where

the soldiers had been
housed the soldiers place,

when the other camps were built,

and that they had
different quarters now,

and that were the
prison barracks.

One of the barracks was

the only women's barrack in

the whole 20 set or
24 set of buildings.

We were unloaded
there, but told to go.

I didn't know. We were told

to stand in that
hallway downstairs.

Then young people came and

brought a piece of cloth
with numbers on it.

These numbers were also
tattooed on your arms.

We had very little
tattooed numbers,

47574, and that's
who you became,

not a person anymore,
but a number.

From that same number I had
to put on your clothing,

and I really do not
remember how we put it on.

Where did we get the
needle and strat from?

I don't remember.

But that we had to put on
our clothing and every day,

you had to stand in
line in the hallway

downstairs to be
called off by number

to check if everybody was
still there and probably

take some who didn't look

too good anymore
out of that group.

But when those young men came
and tattooed the numbers,

I had gone to the washroom,

which had clay floor and I had

taken some clay and rubbed it,

and it came partly out.

But after some days,

I was caught and they sent

another artist over to
make me other number.

It's a little little bigger
than the previous one.

If you would look real close,

you could see the
previous one and

a triangle mingled
with the new number.

But we had to stand for
this counting session.

We were woken up
by five o'clock.

You didn't know
time day, nothing.

You were woken up with
yelling and screaming,

get going, get out of your beds.

You had to make your bed
immaculately that they

didn't see any creases or

whatever on the straw
mattress and the straw.

A pillow and the horse
blanket over it,

and we had to stand downstairs
every time to be counted.

You had to say present when
they called your number.

After the counting in
the morning was done,

you walk by a big barrel
with a brown warm substance,

undefinable, so called
coffee tea or whatever.

But it was warm and it was
drinkable because the water

in the camp was
said to be toxic.

We couldn't drink it.

That was the only fluid we got.

In our football scooped up to
everyone, and that was it.

Then you went upstairs
and upstairs in

the two big rooms were

three high bank beds and

we sat on them and we
get together on them,

and we made some cultural
time passing things,

but you had nothing to do but to

think from minute to minute,

what was going to
happen the next minute.

We didn't know anything.

We didn't know where we were.

We didn't know what was going

on and if you would
be a prisoner,

you would know so many years and

so many weeks or so
many months to be gone.

But we didn't know anything

except I knew one
thing that when I got

on what is the thing of

the railroad when the people

stepped on, what's it called?

But anyway, I'm not gang boy.

That I looked around and
I thought by myself,

I'm going to make it.

I don't know why, but I knew
I would make it alone by

myself and that seemed
to be radiating for me.

I think most of the time,

I had two things for me.

I had this willingness,

this will to get through,

and also that I spoke German.

When they yelled some orders,

I could know what it was
and could right away react.

Others who didn't got
beaten up because they

were not paying
attention and so forth.

But we had to go buy
that barrel of liquid to

upstairs and sit together
cooking in our minds,

making menus, planning,

what are we going to do
if this would ever end.

Eventually some
people were called

by number to come downstairs.

Downstairs seemed to be a
laboratory or operating room,

and two sick rooms.

The some of the people
who came upstairs

after they had been
downstairs came up crying.

But they didn't know what
to tell us because it

was some funny thing which
they had done to them,

and they didn't know
what it was for.

It turned out that eventually

everybody from
these chosen people

turned out to be guinea pigs,

that there was a
substance put into

the vaginal area of

the photo substance for

contrast with different
medications in it.

This was the try,

which we later learned,

of course, for mass
sterilization.

Be Hitler had made
this plan that

after all the countries of
Europe would surrender to him,

he wouldn't even have
to do these things.

He had to take only the Jewish
women and sterilize them,

and then the next generation
would be purely Aryan.

That was his dream.

The substance where they
infused the people with were

different consistency
because they took pictures

three months later to see

how the situation
had worked out.

Eventually, practically
everybody had

been part of this
experimentation.

I was free of it till

later because I had
volunteered to work in

the sick room
downstairs where we had

some scarlet fever come in
from the last transport.

If the Germans would have

known that there
was scarlet fever,

they would have taken the
whole barrack and gassed

it or the Jewish doctor
who was in charge

of the building kept it

quiet as somebody who
would volunteer for it.

I volunteered because
I was in Berlin

and hospital for scarlet fever.

I thought I was immunized
for it. I was working there.

I could wait every

time when I was called
that I didn't have to go.

But finally, regardless whether

you had a position or not,

you had to come, and that's
how I learned what they did.

We didn't know what they did.

But in my case,

I didn't have any pain,

but some of them had a
painful reaction to it.

There was another
room downstairs where

another court doctor
doesn't necessarily have to

be the doctor because one of

the people who
experimented with us,

we heard was a barber,

but he was doing
the experiments.

But one of the rooms,

there were 10 Greek girls taken

from the group which had
come into our barrack.

They were operated
caesarian style,

all organs removed and taped
close and sent up again.

Not staple, no nothing.

Just cape crossways.

I don't know how many of
those died or didn't die.

I have no idea because you

were living so much
on yourself trying

to get through the day to

the next day that I never
paid much attention to it.

I had my patients downstairs
where I was called

for to make the straw beds

and get the soup
balls with food in.

Later, the two nurses who
were in charge of this room

disappeared and I had a room
for myself to take care of.

There wasn't much to do.

We had only very few
medical help to do.

The only thing we
could do was have

cesarean substance in a
big ear syringe and with

a little plastic rubber
hose with swell hose,

connect that ear syringe
piece with a needle and get

some salt water into

the people who were dehydrated

from being so sick with fever.

Then we did it with two of us.

I or somebody else
would slowly press

that substance in
and another one

would sit and massage it in.

It got absorbed to the
body a little bit better.

It did help some people.

Meanwhile, I had heard
that my husband had

come into the camp by

the food carrier who were

the male nurses of a male
sick barrack next to us.

From him, I heard that
my husband had arrived.

I could see him once through

a little slit of the plywood,

which was blocking our
windows plus the bars.

You had nothing to go by.

But there was a
little slit there

and he would put my husband in

front of that on his barrack
and I could see him.

The first thing my
husband said, no.

Was I pregnant. Good thing
I wasn't because that

wouldn't have been too
favorable in that situation.

But that was the only signal
we had for each other,

except that we could
send little notes

with this person back and forth.

I later sent him the little
solid food which we got,

a piece of bread and
something to put

on like cheese or blood
sausage or whatever.

I sent that to him and
I lived on the soup.

The soup meant the
meal meant soup,

a big barrel or more barrels

with some occasionally
things swimming in it.

If you were a friend of

the scoopy of the
person who scooped it,

she went down and
dug some solids up.

If you weren't a friend,

she skimmed it from the top,

and that was plainly just water.

But I became friends
with her and

she scooped some more
decent soup up for me.

But that's my dimension
now because I have a big,

big stomach and asked

for more food than
other people did.

But the soup helped,

although not too
well, but it helped.

After a while I got also

the news that my
husband had died there.

According to the soup
carrier from Barrack,

he died with the filling,

his prayer boxes on.

You could organize
everything in camp

if you had a
relationships for it.

That he died of tuberculosis.

I doubt it now
because I have gotten

some information from
the Alsburg archives,

which confirms both of
our entrance in the camp,

but neither of us
further than that.

Maybe this young man
had tried to spare

me the things which I
thought had worked out,

that he was taken off
the list of going to

a selection truck and

that he was sent to
the gas chamber.

But according to him,

he died of tuberculosis.

When I heard that news,

I lost my beliefs.

I was fairly orthodox,

but only what I had
learned in the Kibbutz.

I still couldn't say the
night evening prayer

anymore because when he
was living at that moment,

I had contact with
him, spiritual.

But when he died,
I started asking

why such a religious person,

why such a good person and
so forth, got to death.

I lost it. We were a barrack.

I got diaria at that time, too.

I was 12 days in coma,

survived because the doctor

who was in charge
of our barrack had

gotten hold of one syringe of

the forerunner of what
now is Penicillin.

It was even the name I remember.

I remember nothing nowadays,

globoset that was called.

It was the forerunner
from penicillin.

It hurt, and she
gave it to me here.

I said at that moment,
like a veterinarian.

God. But that's what I
remember of it, nothing else.

I survived. I got back to
being a human being again.

That winter we were taken
out of the barrack.

It was not in the winter.

It was in the spring.

All of them were taken out
of the barrack and taken to

another new built building

outside of the
electric wire camp,

which the old Auschwitz
has been surrounded with.

We got into that barrack and

no experiments
were done anymore.

I remember very
little of that time.

The only thing was,

I always volunteered for every
work, what was requested.

One day in the beginning
of my volunteerism,

I got a little basket
and had to go to

one side of the outside
where we were taken,

put rocks in it,

and bring it to the other side.

The next day, we had to take

the same rocks from that
side back to this side.

This was something to trying

to make you feel how
unimportant you were for them.

But I always volunteered
and when we went out

under guard with the
soldier and dog,

we sometimes could
stop someplace on

a side road and pick
some green stuff.

There's quite some wild growing
plants which are edible.

I could supply myself with
some additional food that way.

Vitamin now thinking of it.

Maybe that's why I survived.

But in that new barrack was

only a sewing group
on the attic of

the building on the
slanted roof on

picnic benches and seats,

repairing part of the broad
in not so good clothing.

I forgot to tell
that the Germans

would seal the house of
all the people who they

have taken to the camps and
later take everything out of

those homes and send them to

Germany as to the
bombed out districts.

They had a good
supply of things.

In our case, the suitcases,

which everybody brought
were collected.

You never saw them again in

a big building which
was called Canada,

and there everything
was sifted out.

When you went to

Washington DC to the
Holocaust Museum

and you see the hair,

that was all gathered
in this buildings,

but also all medication
which came in,

sometimes valuables and they

peeled through the closing to

find if there was
something hidden in it,

the coat I later got had
100 or 1,000 whatever.

I don't know. Is Austrian or
Czech money, big banknote.

I still have it in the
lining of the shoulder pad.

But of course, it
didn't do any good.

But we were put in that barrack.

At that day, I said
to my neighbor girl,

my friend, move
over a little bit.

I'm uncomfortable.

I sat under the slanted roof
and it was too close to me.

I said move over a little bit.

Half a minute later,

a big rock came
through the roof.

That was the only time that

the allied had bombed
one of the factories.

We were close by.

By the air pressure, probably.

I don't know where it came from,

but it came through the roof.

Everybody upstairs tried
to get downstairs.

Everybody downstairs,
tried to get upstairs.

There were bars in
front of the windows,

and I remember heavy
set Dutch woman who

had diabetes and remained
heavy set that way,

tried to squeeze through
the bars and got stuck,

and we had to pull
her out later.

But he doors here
turned out to be open.

The Germans were
in a bomb shelter.

You were not there,
so we could walk out.

But where would you walk to?

Enemy country in which you think

that people at the
neighborhood should at

least know that these
are prisoners and they

would denounce us and
tell the Germans.

None of us at that time,

tried to get out.

Very soon afterwards,

the Germans came out
of the bomb shelter,

herded us back in the building,

and I remember very
little of the time.

This was reconstructed to time,

whatever in September 44.

Reconstructed again,
was January 18th.

Everybody had to
stand on counting

session outside of the Barrack.

Minnesota weather,
Minnesota snow,

no decent closing, but they
were distributing coats.

What I later learned loaves
of bread for each one.

I didn't know that.

I think I was looking in my coat

if I could find
something in there also.

But this other friend
of mine came and said,

My God, how come you don't
have a loaf of bread?

What loaf of bread?

Well, they were distributing
loaves of bread,

and they had gotten one with
the two of them together.

But as I had taken care

of them in a sick room
when they were sick,

now, they would take care of me.

I was sharing in that
one loaf of bread.

It turned out that we went
on one of the death marches,

three days and two nights or
two nights and three days.

I don't know which one.

Whoever couldn't walk
and was not supported

by somebody fell
down in the snow,

either got shot by the
guard or got hounded by

the dogs which were with
them or died in the snow,

which I heard was
a very graceful

dead because you slip away.

Not everybody who went on

that march arrived at
the end destination.

I remember only one time having
leaned against a window.

Don't remember anything else.

But when we got to
our destination,

which turned out the
next railroad station

because the railroad was bombed.

We went to the next station,

which was about, I think,

60 kilometer, 40 some miles
in three days and two nights.

There were open box
cars standing there,

and we were hunted into

those box cars more
than otherwise in it.

You had nothing to
sit or whatever.

You were pressed
together like sardines.

I do remember that
at a certain time,

nature was calling and we
didn't have a bucket there.

We used one of our
footballs for deposited in,

and as it was an open cart,

I dumped it over the edge,

and there was a German
walking underneath there.

We heard terrific cussing,

but he couldn't do a thing.

He couldn't empty
out and try and

fight it between 100
people or something,

or he couldn't dislodge

the train part and get
the train part out.

Nothing happened. It
was the enforcement and

the encouragement
for all the misery

of that three days trip.

Later the train was,

I don't know how many
box cars with it.

They started rolling again.

Once in a while you were set
on a side road because there

was some military
things coming by,

then the prisoners had
to wait, of course.

We finished up in
Ravensbruck which was

a political women's
camp, close to Berlin.

We didn't fit in there at

all not only by what
we're coming from,

but there was no room.

They called for people
to go to another camp.

As I always had volunteered,

the three of us volunteered,

got put I think on a truck,

and I don't remember,

and driven to camp turned
out to be a Mecklenburg,

but we later learned it was

a camp for people

who didn't want to
work for the Germans.

For punishment, they were put in

these camps to labor in
the factories or whatever.

We were put in
there on the floor,

straw like sardines,
you had to give

an order for that row to
turn if you wanted to turn,

then all of us turned.

If heaven forbid you had
to go to the outhouse,

you lost your spot
because everybody

moved a little bit
and it was gone.

You had to wait on the
side of the building.

Till morning that

everybody got up
and now I remember,

I forgot to tell that all the

time that's where
they froze my feet.

When I got up in the morning,

I could feel that there was
a big lump under my feet.

When I felt that it was not only

under my feet but the top too,

it was a great big blister and I

don't know where I got
a needle from because

I sat on a needle to
sterilize it and then

pricked those blisters
and got the liquid out.

I had gotten a bandage of

paper that I got, I
don't know from whom.

But I bandaged them
with the paper bandage,

except neuropathy, which I have.

I didn't have to have anything
amputated or whatever.

Other people did have
their feet amputated,

their toes amputated
or something.

But I still carry the result
of that blister, I guess.

But anyway, we were put
in this labor force camp,

slept on the floor,

had to stand upheld outside,

and a few of us were
placed in blood groups.

One of us three turned out to

be put in the civilian kitchen.

I finished up in

a cardboard factory where they

made little boxes
for ammunition,

but when the owners of

this little factory
heard who we were,

they were aghast, because they

didn't know anything about it.

They themselves had
come from Leipzig,

which was closer
to the Russians,

and they had gone away from

there and put the little
factory up at that place,

and they bought right away
portions of soup for us from

the civil kitchen next to

us where my other
friend was working.

We had a good time having
food for a few days,

the people who were
working in this group.

Antse who was working
in the kitchen and I,

we had made a signal,

and I don't remember
how that when.

She went to the out house,

she would carry something
from the kitchen,

and I would go to
the out house and

put it in the lining of my coat.

They were checked every night if

they would smuggle something,

and we were not checked

because why would we
take cardboard along?

I could smuggle some of the
things she had organized,

stolen from the kitchen.

But it was only a short time

till somebody got a hang of it,

that there was something
good going on,

and we were withdrawn
from those functions.

It was about three
months that we were in

that camp and nothing
was happening.

I have very little
memory of that also,

but at the end of
the month, first,

it was Hitler's
birthday in April,

and shortly after that,

we heard quite some record
going on in a distance.

Sirens and shooting and orders

and masses of people somehow

being moved there,
and we thought, hey,

something must be going on,

and decided that maybe
overnight we should stay up in

case someone would come and

liberate us and we could
explain who we were.

I volunteered for English,

and a Polish woman
who knew a little bit

Russian volunteered for Russian.

That night, nothing happened,

but when I looked out
in the morning by

dawn, in a distance,

I saw a prisoner with

a white and blue jacket
with an American flag.

I said by myself,

Margot, keep your mouth shut.

You're hallucinating.
Are you starting?

Not now at the end
of everything,

don't say anything,
and I didn't.

But half an hour later,

other prisoners came and said,

"Get out of here. You're free."

We didn't have anything to pack,

nothing to take along,

and we started walking.

We were told to go to the West.

That the Russians were
coming from the East,

we should go to the
West, which we did,

but also a thousands and ten
thousands of Germans who had

very guilty feelings
because they had been

ran setting in Russia
when they were there,

and they expected the same
from the Russians, of course.

They tried to get
away from them.

We sat down on the
side of the road

sometimes with some
other prisoners who were

cooking something
over a fire and

got a little piece of
potato or something,

but nothing to eat.

At night, instead of taking
revenge like many did

and threw the Germans out of

their house or out of the farm,

the three of us quartered
ourselves in a chicken coop.

It was nice and warm
upstairs in the hay,

and smelled good compared
to other smells.

But in the morning, we found

out we still haven't
had anything to eat.

Antse, the most

courageous of the
three of us said

she would go and try
and find some food.

She came back with a
suckling pig under her arm.

I said, "Antse,
for heaven's sake,

first of all, who would kill it?

There's nothing on
it. Bring it back."

The farm woman had
already looked

so mad at her when she took it,

and she came back with
nothing, of course.

We decided to take
a chicken hostage.

Not to slaughter it because

neither of us could
have done that,

and we didn't have
any way to cook it,

but we waited till it had laid

an egg and then let it go again.

We took the egg and
put it in probably one

of our previously used
for other purposes,

football, added a little water
and each drank two sips.

We got sick. But we didn't
have too much in our stomach,

so it didn't take long
that we had to throw up.

In the afternoon, we started

joining the other masses
again and finished

up in the next city where
the Russians already had

come because they
took a detour and

had gotten there before we did.

We were taken hold of by

the Russian soldiers who
interrogated everyone,

all the other Germans, too,

and we could prove who we
were by the number which

we had and the way we
could express ourselves,

what we were from.

One of the officers of

the interrogation
group went back to

his jacket and came
back with a dictionary,

Dutch Russian of all things.

We asked him by pointing

and trying to make
each other understand,

how come he has a
Dutch dictionary.

Well, he said as a child,

he was always so much interested

in the history of Sir Peter,

who had sent his son to

Holland to learn the
trade of shipbuilding.

He always hoped that
someday he could visit in

Holland and then by pointing
on words in his dictionary,

could make himself understood.

Very sweet. They put us up in

the house where they had
chased the Germans off.

Of course, we were looking right

away for food,
there was nothing.

A little piece of
Dutch mare pepper,

I think was something there,

but there was nothing there.

At night, a soldier came and
brought us a loaf of bread.

Very slightly, remember we were

someplace in the
canteen and God's food,

but I don't remember it.

It's just in my subconscious.

There we learned that there was

a Red Cross post close by.

We asked for directions,

and it was across a
burning heather field.

I don't know how we got
through that around it or

that there was a chance to
go in between the flames.

But when we got there
to that next post,

there was a Red Cross post,

the French Red Cross.

They took care of the ones
from the whole West Bloc too,

the Polish and Russian and

Hungarians and
Czech and whatever.

They didn't want to go to
their own country back.

That's how the DP camps came

into being, displaced person.

Everyone who didn't
have a country to go

back to was placed in those,

and we were taken by
the Red Cross with

trucks under Canadian soldiers
guard from town to town,

stopping at night in
improvised little places.

They were not prepared
that there were

people coming that fast,

and it took six days till we

finally finished up in
1,000 part of Holland.

Holland was still divided.

The North part had been

liberated when we were
at the beginning of May.

The South part had
been liberated before

the Aden offensive in
September of the year before.

They didn't want any newcomers
in that old district.

They had to supply
enough foodstuff

and other supplies to have

people come in and help
the people there because

they had hunger
winter it was called.

They didn't have any food.

I don't know what they
ate and how they cooked,

they burned their
furniture to make

a fire and cook
whatever over it.

But they had a
miserable winter, too,

so they had to
supply them first.

They put us up in a
school after having

been sanitized with DDT
and gotten new clothing.

At that time, my friends
and I, we had lice.

Finally, after 2.5 years,

we finally got stuck
with lice and we sat as

monkeys, liching each other.

But that was gone after
the DDT treatment.

We needed it, and we
were put up in a school.

In that school was also a
priest, I don't know what,

but I think he was a
priest was rotating there,

and I talked to him and said,

"Could you find out if

such and such a family
still living here?"

This was a relationship
of my father

in law at one Jubileum
or something else.

I was introduced
to these people.

This were the manufacturers of

the goods which he
was wholesaler from.

He came back and said, "Yes,

they are here, and they want
you right away to come."

I said, "No way,
there's three of us,

thank the people for us."

Then he came back and said,

"No, the three of you can come."

I don't remember
practically anything.

I see a nice house,

but I can't remember
anything else.

I only know that it was

beautiful weather in
the beginning of May.

Our hostess had said,
wait, you know what?

You invite those three
Canadians which escorted

you all the time out
here for a garden party.

I make tea party.

The three Canadians and

us three girls and
our hostess were

sitting there having tea when
another Canadian walked in.

He went to the hostess
and talked to her.

First, Jed looked at us
with a question mark.

Is that one of yours, too?

No, they're here.

That young man walked up to her,

talked to her, turned around,

and came up to me.

It was my brother
who had volunteered

in the Canadian Army
when he was liberated.

He got a pass,

and he was in Canadian
uniform and from him,

I learned that my mother
and my father had survived.

He brought some stuff which
my mother had saved for me,

some silk underwear,

which I needed as all the bad at

that time, and 10 guilders.

I couldn't do anything
with the guilders,

but you felt as a royalty
having 10 guilders.

Well, after a while,

they opened up the demarcation
line from the visitors,

and the three of us went

with the first train
running to Amsterdam.

There we split up,

everybody had to try
to find something.

I found the in between
address of my father,

of course, easily, but it
was a good 45 minutes walk.

The other girl, Antse,

went to where she thought
her cousins were living.

They were mixed marriage,

and had survived, and they

were still living
in that same house.

Later I learned that after a
while she was still there.

I think after two months,

somebody came to the
doorbell and rang

and there's a staircase
going like that,

so you have to
look down and talk

down with the one who comes in.

This young man said
he was coming to

find a picture of his late wife.

Instead of his late wife,
he found his wife there.

I found the address
and the Canadian,

which I was friends
with came and visited

once in a while till
he was sent back,

and I had correspondent
with his wife for

50 years till she
finally passed away.

He was so decent to order

his daughter to send
me the obituary.

But I've never had
contact with him anymore,

only with his wife.

But I was also

then living in the house
where my father was hiding.

I had a tin box with K
Russians under my bed,

and I ate them day and night.

I had to put up some
weight again, and I did.

That was by liberation.

Later, my mother came back
from the country to Amsterdam,

and the three of
us rented a place

in what would be now
a boarding house,

pension it was called.

We rented the rooms there
and had kitchen facilities,

I think, and that
was my liberation.

At that time, I tried

to make up for lost
time, and you can't.

I ate and drank and
went out and brought

my parents to head shaking

because they didn't expect

their daughter to be like that.

I had to make up
with the lost years.

After a year, there was
anniversary celebration.

I went to that
celebration and met

a young man who had come
from a camp in Indonesia.

He was caught as a merchant
marine boat somehow,

got into an island
and was found out by

the Japanese and he was in

a Japanese camp in
all those years.

We became friends and we

thought we could
build a better world.

We were planning on marrying,

and then I couldn't
get married because I

didn't have a death
certificate for my husband,

and it takes five
years and five months

till you can declare
somebody dead.

We got married after that time,

had a very nice apartment.

He started the
business together with

my father for my money.

Later walked out after they
had the first setback and

he had my father sit there with

those bills and bills of goods.

After I came to the
States before I went,

I gave it all to the Red Cross.

My father had a
chance to keep on

making a living by
selling it for a dime,

a dollar or something like that.

But they had some extra income

that way and that helped too.

But after in total,

13 years, I think,

I gave up on them because
I was not number 1,

I was number 3.

He had bought also
with my money,

a radio record shop,

and the girl who was working

there was the main
person of the job.

He didn't know too
much about it.

She was very important to him.

She came to live with
us in our house.

When we went on vacation,

she went with us on vacation.

She was more or less
adopted daughter for me.

One time he went to Germany
to have his suit outfit.

I was by myself.

I went first to psychiatrist,

then to the Jewish community,

and then to a lawyer.

>> I applied for divorce,

which I got with

trouble because he didn't
want to let me go.

I had to go into
certain type of hiding.

I went into a sudatorium
a place where people

were to recuperate and
boarded myself there.

My parents didn't
know where I was.

My friends didn't
know where it was.

I was the one who could
only take contact with him.

Indeed, he had tried to

persuade my father
to tell him where I

was or whatever, but he didn't.

After the divorce was through,

I applied for a visiting visa

and came here where my brother

was living here in Minneapolis.

He was transferred from
Pillsbury, New York,

where he was living
for six years already

to Minneapolis and shortly
after that got fired.

They were not in too good
circumstances either.

They were expecting a baby,

and that was the reason
why I came to America for.

I had gone and visited
a lot of friends all

around and then I

stayed with my adopted Emma

and I was their
adopted daughter.

We were friends in Holland
when they visited one time,

and they said there was
always a room for me there.

I was there for three months.

Then when the baby was due,

came back to Minnesota,

the baby didn't come.

I got the baby out of

my nostrils from hearing Dr.
Spock's stories all day.

I said, I got to
get out of here.

I went to the bus stop,

meaning to go to
Dayton's in downtown,

and the bus went away right
in front of me. I was mad.

There was another lady coming,

and we were together mad at
the bus and talked together,

and I told her I had just
come from California.

It was so nice out there.

The people were friendly,

and the weather was friendly.

She said, well, I
have a daughter who

goes out sometimes with
the boy from Holland,

and I'll call his parents.

Which she did.
After a few weeks,

they asked for how
they could pick me up.

I was taken home with them
to go to Dutch club meeting,

which turned out I didn't.

Rudy came in, we
started talking,

and after some months
till my visa was over,

I promised I would
try to come back.

And I did. I applied
for immigration visa,

got it very fast,

came back in January '61.

We got married, and
we were together for

44 years till they died
now three years ago.

Some questions. [APPLAUSE]

MALE_1: >> Thank you
very much, Margot,

and nice toss of a latrine pot.

FEMALE_1: >> How old were
you when you were liberated,

and what year did you actually
first come to America?

Margot DeWilde: >>
I was 22 when I

got taken to Switzerland
and finished up in a camp.

What was I going to say?

I was two years, two months,

and two days from leaving

the home in Amsterdam to

returning to the
home in Amsterdam.

Two years, two
months, and two days.

Don't be shy. I answer
questions for kids.

I can do it for adults, too.

[LAUGHTER]

FEMALE_2: >> Can you
comment on the new Germany?

How new is it?

Margot DeWilde: >> I
left Germany in '32,

when I was 11 years old with
my parents and my brother.

Come on. Was I so

explicit that you understood
everything? Couldn't be.

MALE_1: >> Oh, we
have some questions

from persons listening
over the web.

Paul, and thank you
for the recording.

Paul: >> Pleasure. There's
a two-part question from

a listener tuned in
on the web today.

In Ellie Wiesel's book
Lanuit the Night,

he talks of the
importance of keeping

one's humanity even when
dehumanization is at its height.

The first part of
her question is,

how did you do this?

The second part of
her question is,

how do you think Americans
today can do this?

How do we make sure that we're
seeing people as humans,

not as objects or
units of productivity?

Margot DeWilde: >> How not
to treat them as humans?

I can't answer.

But life was a little bit
different at that time.

There was nothing like adopting
or whatever in that time.

I had two operations
and then learned

that I probably
couldn't have children.

Otherwise, I would have
adopted something.

But now I grew up with

my husband and after he was
gone, now I'm lonesome.

But in general, most
people got remarried,

some of them got together
with their old husbands.

Some of them had kids who
had the experiments done.

There were two which
I know of had a baby.

Others didn't. That
was taken care of.

In a way, you had to
find your mate that

way because you had to inform

that you couldn't have children.

FEMALE_3: >> There
are so many issues

concerning the aftermath of

feelings and from
the experiences,

and we just had Ava Core here,

whose feelings now have
evolved to forgiveness.

Can you express a little bit

about where you're coming from,

as far as your feelings from

the whole situation that
you've been through?

Margot DeWilde: >> Yeah, I
can express that in some way.

First of all, I lost my beliefs,

so I had to find some
other beliefs who

made me more fitting
into the society.

One way, I claimed to be
the first liberated woman

because I did and
ate and whatever.

Whatever came in my head I did.

My parents shook their
heads probably very often,

but I had to make up in time.

Now I have found a belief way,

which is a mixture
of all religions.

It supports me.

I find people who think
the same way too.

I believe that everything is
connected with the other.

Nothing stands alone.

I don't believe in death.

When my brother died,

I saw his soul go away from him.

My belief is that I believe
that the soul keeps alive and

according to what you've done in

this step that you are
placed in the next function.

FEMALE_4: >> I just
have a question

about before you did
that 40-kilometer.

Margot DeWilde: >> The what?

FEMALE_3: >> The 40-kilometer
walk to the new camp.

Who gave you the coats
and the loaves of bread?

Margot DeWilde: >> The coats
when we went on the road?

FEMALE_4: >> Yes.

Margot DeWilde: >> The
Germans from all the goods

which had come in
from the transports.

I had a very nice coat.

[LAUGHTER]

FEMALE_5: >> Have you had
any contact with people

that you were in the
concentration camp with?

Margot DeWilde: >> Yeah. My
friends I kept in contact with.

One died in '65 of
ovarian cancer,

and the other one lived
in United States,

which I visited here.

Like so many of us,

I have always called her,

and now the telephone was

disconnected with no
forwarding address.

That is also from the girl
who died in '65, her husband.

The last letter I had that
he was going to come and

visit us here in Minneapolis
and he disappeared.

I don't know what and
when I heard over Israel,

one of the people
he visited there,

that he had died, but I
don't know what happened.

I think that's the danger
of being left alone.

I had made a list
of people which

should be called in
case I come to die.

Which would happen, of course.

That list, maybe one
or two still exist.

I haven't had the courage
to do the next list.

FEMALE_6: >> What percentage of

the people that you were in

the experimental block with
would you say perished there?

Margot DeWilde: >> In that in
that time, nobody perished.

FEMALE_6: >> You all
made it out there okay?

Margot DeWilde: >> We
all went on that march.

How many in the march
died? I don't know.

FEMALE_6: >> When you were
experimented upon as a woman,

did they ever explain
to you what they were

doing or why they were
doing what they were doing?

Did the doctors ever
say anything to

you when they were
conducting those tests?

Margot DeWilde: >> No.
We didn't know anything.

They didn't tell us anything.

They didn't have to
tell us anything.

When something was told to you,

you did what you were told.

FEMALE_6: >> My question is,

I guess, I'm an identical twin,

and I know that Mengele had

quite a fascination
with twins and

he would do
experiments upon them.

I was told had I lived in

that time that I would be

one of the first
experimented upon.

Do you have any knowledge
of what he was so

curious about or what he was

looking at in regards to that?

Margot DeWilde: >>
No. In our case,

it took a while till you
found out what it was.

Later now in this years I've

had so many books
which confirmed

my way of understanding
and thinking.

But he had some compies
working for him,

which were not
necessarily doctors.

He went out really to first

distinct the good race
against the bad race.

I think he has had some
special women issues.

For the rest, I
can't say anything.

FEMALE_6: >> I'm
sorry, what was that?

Margot DeWilde: >>
Some women issues.

FEMALE_6: >> Oh, apparently.

[LAUGHTER]

MALE_1: >> The lecture by
Hans-Walter Schmuhl about

the Kaiser Wilhelm
Institute for Anthropology,

Human Heredity, and Eugenics,

talks a little bit about

what Mengele's interest
was with twins.

He was in part interested in
questions of expression and

variability between twins and

also questions, for example,

when one person had a
blue eye or a brown eye,

and it was different
than the other

twin and they was trying to

construct particular
phenotypical expression models.

One thing to be noted
is a lot of the data

was sent back to the
Kaiser Wilhelm Institute,

and it wasn't just one
crazy MDPHD named Mengele,

who was there, but [inaudible]
and other people that

were at the height of
the scientific pinnacle.

Another listener
on the web says,

do you know of women who
had been experimented

upon that did go on
to have children?

Margot DeWilde: >>
Yes, I know of two.

Two women who had the
test and had children.

One very, very strangely.

This a strange friend of mine,

who is an UFO admirer,

and has according to her,

she has been taken
by the UFOs and

taken up and has a mark
on her breast from it.

But she had chosen a man

which had all the qualities she

wanted to have for a child.

She was not made with him,

and she didn't know him either.

She just choose him.

They produced a daughter.

But the daughter's just
as crazy as she is.

[LAUGHTER]

FEMALE_7: >> Yes, I was just
wondering about the tattoo.

Have you ever thought
about having it

removed or if people
see it and they

ask you about it just
what you tell them or

what your thoughts about
having it on you are?

Margot DeWilde: >> No.
When I came to the States,

my brother requested me
to put a band-aid on

my number because he did not
want to be known as a Jew.

There still quite some
discrimination going on.

You couldn't become a
member of certain clubs.

You couldn't buy or rent
a house in certain areas.

He must have been
by his hiding time

probably obsessed with
something which I don't share.

But he didn't want to know it.

Other people in the beginning,

the kids who asked me,

I would say, either it's

my laundry mark or

my telephone number
that I don't forget.

[LAUGHTER] I never
had tried to hide it.

I never have thought to
take it out because I

earned it. That's all.

MALE_1: >> Margot's
chauffeur asked

to ask one further question,

and that's a prerogative
of the chauffeur.

FEMALE_8: >> Someone
had asked earlier,

how you feel about forgiveness?

I know how you feel
but [OVERLAPPING]

Margot DeWilde: >>
Well, first of all,

what many people do they
hate their pressure.

I don't know hate.

I only know hate falls
back on the hater,

not on the hatee.

You only ruin your life by
hating, by being obsessed.

One of the three of
us the one in Miami,

she was obsessed with it.

That is not my way of thinking.

In a way feel sorry for let's

say what they used
to call it a race

who had had so many permanent
scientists and geniuses in

their lives that they
could sing solo and

follow these unhuman
instructions.

MALE_1: >> Well, as a final word

on the lecture portion
of this series,

I think that was
really very fine.

I want to thank you for

coming and spending
this time with us.

Margot DeWilde: >>
Thank you. [APPLAUSE]