Welcome to Explore Teach
Conserve, or the ETC

podcast by the University
of Minnesota Extension,

where we talk with
people about exploring,

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and solving problems

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natural resources,

and we share ideas to help you

learn more and get involved.

This is an older episode
from when we used a

different title, The
Naturalist, but the conversation

and ideas are still
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we hope you'll subscribe
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episodes of Explore, Teach,
Conserve, or the ETC.

Hi, I'm Santiago from
U of M Extension, and

this is The Naturalist.
It's a podcast that

aims to explore the
various topics within

the world of Minnesota
Natural Resources,

all while trying to
capture great stories

and talk to people
about the environment.

On this episode, we
talked to knowledge,

with staff technologist
John Latimer from K.A.X.

out in Grand Rapids,
and Associate Extension

Professor Eli Sagar,
who manages the

Sustainable Forest
Education Cooperative

based out of the
Cloquet Forestry Center.

Phenology is a term
I've heard here

and there during
my time at school.

For anyone who's not
familiar with phenology,

it's the study
of how ecological

cycles are impacted
by seasonal variation.

Obviously, that's a very
simplistic definition,

so I set out to learn
more about the topic how

people can get involved
with making phenological

observations and how
the data might be used.

Hey

again.

Hey.

That's John Latimer.

While digging more
into the topic,

his name consistently came up.

I gave him a call
to hear about how he

got started in the
world of phonology and

what he had to say
about his journey.

So,

I guess go ahead and
introduce yourself.

Hello,

my name is John Latimer.
I am the staff phenologist

at Northern Community
Radio, which is K-A-X-E-K-B

-X-E in Grand Rapids and
Vamiji, Bagley, Minnesota.

And presently,

I work for the Oak Ridge
National Laboratory

in a climate change
experiment called

Spruce, about 25 miles
north of Grand Rapids.

I spent the previous
35 years as a rural

mail carrier working
out of the grade.

Wow.

So I guess... That's a good

start there. Yeah,
that's great.

I mean, I guess the first
question I had for you was,

you know, how did that
transition happen? How did you

go from doing a 100-mile
mail route, you know, five

days a week to, you know,
partaking in these phenology?

experiments and these
projects that look at the

seasonal changes and
things along that sort.

Yeah,

so I was working for
about five years before I

worked as a part-time
employee of the post

office before I had enough
seniority to make the

transition to full-time.
And during that time,

I met several people
around the area,

and one woman in particular
who was very interested

in what was happening
in her out of course.

She had a beautiful
home on a lake,

which is just northwest
of Grand Rapids,

and just a gorgeous spot
right on the lake with

a little lagoon in her
front yard. and I used to

stop there once a week
and have coffee with

her, and her name was Mary
Barquist, and Mary and

I struck up a friendship,
and so every week I

would stop and just chat
with her about whatever.

And at some point, she
happened to mention that,

you know, she'd seen
her first Robin today.

And I thought, well,
that's kind of neat, and we

got to talking, and then,
And we just started,

I wouldn't call it even
a friendly competition.

We just started
comparing notes about

what we were seeing
in the out of doors.

And Mary was a good
observer, and a good

journaler. She had a
ledger in which she had

recorded every day
that she had gone out

deer hunting since
the mid-1950. Oh, wow.

And, yeah,

and she had, you know,
weather conditions,

barometer, wind
direction, temperature,

snow on the ground or not,

which deer stand she was in,

you know, who shot deer where.

It was this unbelievable
compendium of information.

I used to tease her that,
you know, if somebody

actually spent the time to
go through that whole book,

they could probably confine
their deer hunting to

about a half hour on any
given. day by just getting the

data down and saying, okay,
today it's going to be

at 8.30 and it's going to
be on this sand right here.

So we started doing that, and

then I think about
that same time,

maybe for Christmas in 1983,

she gave me some field guides.

And I began becoming more
assiduous about keeping track

of things and about that
same time actually to back

up a little bit in October
of 1983 I went to volunteer

at Northern Community Radio
and in those days there

was no morning edition I
did the morning shift and I

would come in turn on the
transmitter get the thing

powered up and then I would
we had teletype machines and

we would go in there and rip
off the news and read it.

And then we would
play music if that was

our ken and talk about
whatever we wanted to

talk about. And I
began talking about the

things that I was
seeing in my mail route.

And it wasn't very long
after I started doing that,

that I got a lot of
positive feedback. People

were calling into the
radio station and talking

to me about things
that they were seeing.

And so I realized that
I was on to something.

And that sort of
was the beginning.

And then it kind of
snowballed. And I don't know. I

might have been into it
for a couple of years. It

might have been 1986 or 87
somewhere in there. That I

realized that there was
really no way I could quit.

doing what I was doing that
these people expected me

to be there each week with
notes about the world that

was around us all and I
just began a lifelong course

of self-education and
that as you probably are

aware can include anything
from reading to watching

movies to talking to people
who know more than you do,

just every scrap of
information that I could

get a hold of that had
anything to do with

life in northern
Minnesota I grabbed on to.

And some of it was
accurate, and some of

it wasn't. I mean,
there were mistakes.

For several years,

I had misidentified a
butterfly called, well the

butterfly was called the
Compton's tortoise shell but

I had misidentified it as
the American painted lady

and I came to learn after
about 10 years that in

fact it was the Compton's
tortoise shell so it was

and that was only just one
example of mistakes that

were made you know I came
to this not as a student of

biology or botany or any
of the sciences I have a

degree in economics which
is not hasn't served me

the way the way my own
private education has served

me but i i began back in the
80s watching and observing

and learning and of course
the mail route afforded

me a perfect opportunity
because you don't go

very fast and you stop often
and you're sitting on the

opposite side of the car
than the steering wheel.

Right, right.

So you're looking out
the side window right

at the ditch, and
anything that went by,

I would make note
of it. And whether

it was a grass or
a flower or a plant

of one sort or
another or a tree,

it just started writing
down what I was observing.

I've been a good observer
all my life. I mean, I have

six brothers and sisters,
and they always use. to

tease me because I was
always the one going down the

road looking out the back of
the car window at the hawk

on the power line or this
or that and and just picking

up details you know it
wasn't just a bird on the

power line it was a bird
and it had certain colors in

certain places and so I
would melt them and so

observational skills were
something that I had a little bit

of a aptitude for before
I began this whole thing.

Okay.

That's quite the
journey you've taken.

It is.

What a long strange trip
it's been, so to speak.

Or to paraphrase.

Right.

Now, I guess one
thing that's kind of

coming to me in terms
of curiosity is,

have you seen a lot
of changes since

you started this in
terms of, you know,

certain species that
you've been watching

and just certain
things that you've been

picking up. Have you
seen drastic changes

in the last, you know,
10, 15 years or so?

Mostly in things that
are mobile. So the

plants haven't changed
much. The changes to

plants has been in
their basic phenology.

But the changes in,
you know, drastic

changes within the environment,

Gray fox.

So until about 10 years
ago, I'd never seen a gray

fox. Now gray fox are as
common up here as red foxes.

And they have moved
north over the years

and are now quite
common in this area.

They were, you know,
15 or 20 years ago,

they weren't here. And
no one would have even

assumed that they would
be here. So gray fox,

a little, well, not a
little, a medium-sized

bird called the Red
Bellied Woodpecker,

which is probably familiar to

everybody south of Brainerd,

became a denizen of a citizen
of Northern Minnesota.

And again,

you know, 15, 20 years ago,

never heard of
it, never saw it,

and now they're,

I won't say common,

but I do have one
that, that visits my

feeder on a fairly
regular basis. And

I live quite a way
out in the woods.

So it's not like I'm
in a big city area or

something where it would
be kind of wandering around

the neighborhoods. This
bird has found me in my

bird feeder and has
availed itself, and I would

expect that it probably
is nesting in the area.

And they're a year-round

resident. and they
don't migrate,

so they're here now, and they

hadn't been here
15 or 20 years ago.

So most of the dramatic,

startling changes are
animals, birds and mammals.

But the plants have definitely

changed their phenology.

So if I look, for instance,

at

something like Aspins,

when I first started
keeping records,

the Aspins, the
average date for leap

out on the Aspins
was May 1st. If you

take the first 10
years of my records,

an average amount, you'll

get May 1st as your average.

And now, if you
take all 30 years,

33 years, of data that I
have on Aspen Leapout May 20

or April 29th so two days
earlier in 30 years doesn't

seem like much but when you're
talking about an average

it's significant so the
trend the trend for Aspen

Leafout is definitely to
earlier the trend for a lot of

plants seems to be pushing
toward earlier some plants

not so much red maple doesn't
seem to be particularly

intent on changing its
phenology it seems to

be kind of steady flat
but other plants most

definitely are moving
toward earlier flowering

and if you look at the
long term I suspect

that it will continue
that's interesting Now,

do you have,

would you say the
community in their area is,

you know, throughout
the years has been very

curious about all
these changes as well?

You know, they have been.

As I mentioned, you
know, when it first

started, there was
a quick response.

People were interested.

So they, you know, it's
like talking about the

weather, except it's a
little more particular.

people were very interested
from the start and

over the years that
interest has been piqued and

there aren't a lot of
people in northern Minnesota

within the confines of
the listening area of

K-A-X-E who don't know the
definition of phenology

which is probably not
true of a lot of places

so there are people
who are definitely

tied in there are a lot
of people who are doing

phenology as a result of
hearing he talk about phenology

there are there is a great
deal of interest and and

i've done some to push that
interest as well i about

19 oh 98 or 99 somewhere
in there i started visiting

school classrooms and
settled on fourth and fifth

grades just because the
science melds well and fourth

and fifth graders are a
great group of kids they they

aren't afraid to ask any
question they don't fear

looking stupid in front of
their compatriots they're

fearless that way and they
don't have a lot of boy-girl

dynamics that interrupt the
classroom so I just like

them I like them as a group
I like their development

and they're absolutely
fascinated about nature and

so I've been doing that for
close to 18 years probably

coming up on 19 years and
you know that is some of

those some of those fifth
graders are now 29 and 30 and

they are still doing
phenology or at least they're

still looking at the world
and thinking about phenology

hmm really interesting
I guess bringing it to

This year,

you know, what are some
of the changes you've been

observing recently that, you
know, you've been making kind

of exclamation points in
your notebooks about, or are

there any that are kind of
really catching your eye?

Yeah, you know,

just to back up a little
bit and maybe recap

something that we talked
about earlier, and I

forgot to mention, is
that in terms of changes,

when we were talking
about the Aspins,

the lake that I
live on, which is a

small 70-acre lake,
about 25 feet deep,

it has,

over the last 30 years,
it has gotten its

ice in-date, the day
that it freezes over,

has increased by about
a half a day a year.

So when I first started
keeping records, it was usually

frozen in the first week
or 10 days of November.

And now typically it's not

frozen until after
Thanksgiving,

which can be the 25th, 26th.

So that sort of a
change has come about.

That's kind of dramatic.
And this year, the ice went

out on my lake about 10 days
ahead of average and then

I had the flowers of the
speckled alder which is a

plant of the north woods
and grows kind of in the

transition zones between
swamps and high ground and it

flowered about 10 days earlier
but then something like

the emergence of the morning
cloak butterflies I was

about a day late from average
so that each event sort

of you know takes takes
place in its own time period

now two weeks ago I would
have bet that by today

tomorrow or the next day the
aspens would have leaped out

I thought they were going
to be early this year just

based on when they first
put out their first furry

buds and then when the male
Katkins reached maturity and

then when they fell off
the trees he looked at all

those numbers they were four
or five six days ahead of

average and i was thinking
you know if the aspen

stays on that uh projection
then we should have leaf out

four five six days ahead
of average which would put

it around the 23rd 24th
somewhere in there but we got

some snow the other day and
we got some cold weather

and we're looking at cold
weather for the next week,

I'm guessing now that
the Aspen probably

won't leap out until
after the 29th of April,

just because, you
know, weather is

getting in the way.
And, of course,

that's what phenology is.

It's a, you know,
it's a relationship

between plants and
animals and the climate.

And climate, of course, is

the weather and the aggregate.

so this year the weather
was warm early and it

looked like we were going
to be early and now the

weather is cool and it looks
like we're going to fall

to average or maybe a
little bit behind average

closing up one of the
final questions I had for

you was just what are
some of the observations

that you look
forward to every year

that kind of kind
of maybe take your

breath away even when
you look at them.

Yeah,

good question.

Which ones really do I
look for? Well, you know,

this time of year,
I look for the red

maples to break into
flour, and they have.

And in fact, now the male
flowers have all fallen

off the red maples, So now
we're just talking about

the female flowers, and
if the male flowers are

all falling off, we know
they've already pollinated,

but it's just, you know,
before there are any

leaves on a maple tree,
they're just absolutely

gorgeous red, and that's
because of the flowers on

them. So that's always
startling. The other thing,

and probably the one
thing that every year just

tells me that it's spring
would be the aspen bud

break, when the trembling
aspen leaves come out.

an Aspen's clone and so there
are it's usually a clump

and oftentimes on my mail
route I would leave in the

morning I'd be driving
around the route and I might

be out there it might be 11
o'clock in the morning before

it would actually happen
and somewhere on the mail

route all at once I would
see this pale green kind of

a great green wash on a
clump of Aspins and I would

be like oh that breaking bud
and By the time I would get

done with the mail route
at three in the afternoon,

there would be aspens leafing

out everywhere,
just everywhere.

And then in the next day
or two, you know, they just

pop out and all of a sudden
it's not winter anymore.

It's spring and the aspens
are in flower and leaf.

So, yeah, that's probably
one of the biggest ones.

Of course,

insects, you know,
first butterflies, first

dragonflies. I haven't seen
the dragonfly yet, but I've

got a nephew who lives
in Minneapolis, and he

said he saw one yesterday,
so I remain hopeful.

They're on their way north,
and I'll see one soon.

Those two, for spring,

Aspins especially, just so
dynamic, so unbelievable.

And it just,

it's the one thing
that says to me,

summer, winter's over,
summer's coming. All right.

Following my conversation
with John, I met up with Eli

to talk about the tools
people can use to start

taking phenological observations
and the value of well

-kept phenological data from
a researcher's standpoint.

All right, so go
ahead and introduce

yourself, but you don't
have to get too close.

I'm Eli Sagor. I manage
the Sustainable Forest

Education Cooperative
for the University of

Minnesota based at the
Cloquet Forestry Center.

All right, Eli. So
with this particular

episode, we've been
focusing on the world of

Phonology and how
people can get involved.

So, you know, what are some
steps people can take if

they're really fascinated
with the field, and especially

if they're not sure exactly
where to go from, you

know, just having that
spark of interest to take it

further? Well, there's a
lot people can do. I mean, I

think the first step is just
to start noticing things.

start paying attention,
start writing things down.

There are some great
tools out there.

Nature's Notebook
is one that I've

used a lot and really
think is great,

just to make a record
of your observations.

Under Nature's Notebook,
the way it's set

up is that you would
pick one location and

you would pick one
individual or a small

population, depending
on the type of species,

and then you would go
back to that individual or

that population repeatedly
throughout the season

or throughout the year,
and note your observations.

So there are phenophases,
they're called,

different things like
breaking bud or leaf

out or seed drop or leaf
senescence when leaves

change color and drop.
But you would note

those different
phenophases for whatever

species and populations
you're interested in.

And then that all
gets uploaded to a

database that
aggregates your data

along with data from
other observers.

And you can always
look back at that.

You've got a record
accessible to you,

and researchers can also
use those data. You know,

data, as I said, get
pooled with those of other

observers and become
available. Not with any

personal identifiers, it's
all kind of anonymous,

but there's real power
in having a lot of

different people making
similar observations across

the landscape. And while
there might be weird

variation with your one
tree in your backyard,

it might be. different
from some other trees,

but looking at a
record composed

of a lot of
different observers,

over a period of several
years, you can begin to see

patterns. Even if yours
is weird, chances are it's

weird in the same way
relative to the climate. So

your tree might leaf out a
few days later on average

than other trees in the
area of the same species,

or earlier, or it might be

different in some other way.

But if it leaves
out on average three

days later every
year or whatever,

then researchers,
statisticians, can pull those

numbers apart and really
make sense of those.

So in terms of how
to start, I think,

you know, just
beginning to observe.

And goodness, when you
talk to someone like

John Latimer who's been
at it for 35 years or

whatever it is, it can
be daunting to think,

well, gee, I could
never, you know, I

could never develop
a record like that.

but you never get
there. You know, a long

journey begins with one
step and you never get to

year 30 if you don't
start in year one. And

I have found personally
that just the process

of observing has made
me notice things more,

has made me just pay
closer attention to the

natural world around
me, and I love it for

that reason. I enjoy my
yard more because I do

it. I enjoy hiking more
because I notice it.

And I really like the idea
that I could contribute

to a body of data that
might be useful for

researchers who are able
to better understand the

natural world and what's
going on out there as a

result of having those
numbers to work with. Okay,

that's really awesome.

You know, I feel like it
can be daunting for some

people. You know, it's the
idea of taking observations

and just trying to
notice everything can be

a little bit hard to get
into for some people.

But once they get into it,
I've seen what I've heard

is that it can get
pretty, pretty interesting

and pretty fun and just
get really involved in it.

How valuable can that data
be? In terms of someone

keeping records for a while,
is that something that? you

know researchers and stuff
researchers and other groups

are really looking into
or ideally absolutely yes

it can really be very
valuable be and particularly

records that go back a long
way and there are a couple

of different kinds of data
you can think about the data

in different ways you know
a lot of people talk about

how their grandparents who
have a farm and grow corn

and soybeans down in I
don't know Blue Earth County

or wherever it might be you
know grandpa always noted

the date he planted the corn,
he wrote it in pencil on

the doorway of the barn
every year. So they've got a

35-year record, a 50-year
record, or whatever it is,

of the date the corn
went in the ground.

And data like that are
fascinating and really

actually can be very useful
in terms of documenting

change and seeing how things
have happened over time.

But that's different,
and no better or worse or

whatever, but it's
different. from the kind of

structured data collection
that I just mentioned, one

of the things that's good
about Nature's Notebook

is that it provides a lot
of guidance, a lot of,

gee, I don't know
what constitutes leaf

senescence. Is it when I
see the first color change?

Is it when the leaf
actually falls to the

ground? What if the
leaves on one branch fall

to the ground but not
the rest of the tree or

how many leaves? And
all of that is answered.

And that's important
because if all of

the observers have
different definitions,

or if one observer's
definition changes

from year to year, that
can make interpreting

the data a little
bit problematic.

But if all observers
are working kind

of from the same
playbook, in a sense,

from the same guide,
the same instructions,

and the same set
of definitions.

So we call it leaf out when,

for example, the petiole,

the leaf stem, connects
the leaf blade to the, to

the, twig when that becomes
visible and a lot of

these things are defined
in ways like that that

provide clarity first to
the observer so that he or

she knows that they're
recording data accurately

and also to the researcher
who can then use that

and feel more confident in
the results that they're

getting and in the numbers
that they're crunching

because there's some
standardization so the system

is not overly you know
a detailed and rigorous.

They do a really good job
of making definitions clear

and easy for observers to use.

And there's so much
flexibility that

observers can record
whatever data they want,

but within some sideboards
that make the data more

consistent and useful. So
again, there are records like,

oh, Grandpa always wrote
when he put the corn in,

and a lot of people have
records of when they're. their

lake when the ice went out
on the lake for the first

time in the spring and all
of these different things

and those kind of informal
records are really useful

especially if they're long
-term records and there

are researchers at the
university who would love to

get their hands on those
records but moving forward

there's as I said that there
can be huge value in in that

sort of more systematic
collection and how are those

data used I mean they're
used in all kinds of ways

There's some concern now that
as we see growing seasons

lengthen for some species
that's been documented,

as we see winters
becoming a little

milder, winter's becoming
a little shorter.

You know, we have
this really great

network of weather
observation stations,

but we don't have
corresponding records of

how the changes in the
weather, the climate,

are affecting different
plants. And not

all plants respond in
the same way to changes

in the climate or in
seasonal patterns.

Some of them respond
really strongly.

Others don't respond at all.

Where you're dealing with
species that migrate,

climate may be
changing differently in

the places where they
overwinter from the

places where they
spend their summers.

And that can lead to
asynchrony or problems

of flowers blooming
at a time that

they depend on a
pollinator to fertilize.

and produce the seed at a
time that the pollinators

are not there because
they've responded differently

or because they overwinter
in a place where the

seasonality has changed in a
different way or not at all.

And there is concern among
ecologists that these

problems of asynchrony between
the, just as one example,

pollinators and the species
that they pollinate,

can lead to ecological
problems, failures to

pollinate, failures of
certain kinds of crops,

failures of ecosystems
to function in

the ways that they
have tended to do.

And we need to understand
those changes. We need to

see those things coming and
think about what we can do

to avoid problems that arise
from those asynchronous.

And we don't have anywhere
near the resolution

that we need right now
in the phenological

record, in our understanding
of how different

species in different
places are responding

to very very variation
in local conditions.

So observations like this,
people just going out and

noticing what's happening in
their front yard, documenting

that can be tremendously
valuable and are really

important for researchers in
order to get the resolution

they need from species to
species, from year to year,

to to see what's going on.
It doesn't take a whole lot

of technical knowledge. It
just requires someone to

pay attention, be a little
bit careful about how they

collect the data and a
willingness to share the data.

So, you know, you
can't hoard the

data if you want
to? No, I mean,

it's fine.

And some people, I just
have no interest in

sharing it. It's a
private record, maybe

something like a diary
that they would want to

keep and keep to
themselves, and that's fine.

There's still just a really

wonderful benefit to observing.

But we sure would like to
see people who are willing

to share that. Again,
it's completely anonymous.

but for reasons I've
already mentioned,

it really can be
useful to researchers.

And it's fun. I
mean, I know a lot of

people who are making
these observations on

a regular basis and
who really feel good

about this idea of
contributing. You know,

being a researcher, in
a sense, being a person

who's able to contribute
to this body of knowledge

that is really important
for ecologists to

understand the natural
world that we're living.

That wraps up this
episode of The Naturalist.

You've been listening
to a conversation about

phonology with John
Lanimer and Eli Sagworth.

If you're looking
for a start point,

feel free to check
out the Minnesota

Phonology Network
for more information.

Her website is accessible
at mnpn.usan.usanp.org.

A little bit of mouthful put.

You can check them out online.

And for everything,
extension, you can also

log on to www. read the
extension at UMN.edu.

Special thanks to twin
musiccom for providing music

for this episode. And as
always, my name is Santiago

and thank you for
listening. Have a great day.