Dr. Joe Armstrong: [MUSIC] Welcome to The Moos Room everybody This is Dr. Joe Armstrong. We had a super long recording session with our guests, and we're going to have to break this into two episodes. Fortunately, it really broke down into two parts. We talk a lot about extension and the differences between our states, and we talk a lot about beef production. In the first episode that you're going to hear here, we're going to fade out. We'll come back next episode, finish our conversation with our guests, and talk a lot more about pasture and topics that Bradley was very interested in when we're looking at the differences in grass use and things like that between our state and our guest state. If you've been listening religiously to The Moos Room, you will notice that we are out of order with our episodes. This episode was actually recorded before our Selective Dry Cow Therapy Episode with Dr. Sandra Godden. We got out of order for no other reason than I was sleep-deprived and didn't catch up in time to get everything out in order. No excuses. That's what I got for you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being understanding about things being a little out of order. Let's get into this episode. Welcome to the Moos Room, everybody. We have another guest this week. It's not just to the OG-3. You're not stuck just listening to me and Brad and Emily. We have another guest. Emily found this one. Brad found the last one, so it was Emily's turn. Who's with us today, Em? Emily Shaw: Well, I am really excited about the guest we have with us today. Also, through the joys of technology, we are able to explore extension and cattle throughout the country. We're joined today by a good friend of mine who works for Extension in West Virginia, actually. We met through National Extension conference a few years ago. He's been a good friend for a few years now. It is my pleasure to introduce John David Johnson. He is the agriculture agent for Jackson County, West Virginia, not Jackson County, Minnesota. Jackson County, West Virginia. Welcome, John, David. John David Johnson: Thank you for having me. When you approach me there, I say, Well, that sounds like fun. We probably do things a little bit different than other parts of the state in our state, so our other parts of the country. I was interested in coming on and see how you'll run the beef programs and farge programs in Minnesota. Dr. Joe Armstrong: We're excited to get into that more. We're going to talk a lot about the differences between the states and how things differ management-wise, get into the beef side quite a bit. We have two questions. Before we start everything, and whenever we have a guest, we ask them the same questions. We'll start with dairy this time. We need to know your favorite dairy breed has to be a purebred breed, no crossbred. What is your favorite dairy breed? John David Johnson: Oh, well, we're not really a dairy state. [LAUGHTER] Emily Shaw: Yeah. He looks very taken aback by this question. He was not ready for this. John David Johnson: It does. If you throw out beef there. I'd probably throw out a crossbred to get a little hybrid vigor. But I don't know. I've got a soft spot for an old jersey. [OVERLAPPING] Brad Heins: Yes. John David Johnson: Diaries out there, and you see those huge jerseys in there to bump up that butter fat. They're like, in a sea of giants. They're like, Okay. I like something a little different. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Perfect. Well, that is the correct choice, as we all know. Brad Heins: That's right. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Jersey is the best. That's the correct choice. That puts them ahead of everyone now. Jerseys have three votes. Holsteins have two, Dutch Belted with two, Normande with one, Brown Swiss with one, and Montbeliarde with one. That's the correct choice. Brad, myself, and now John David, all voting for Jersey. John David Johnson: I want to know what Emily voted for because her eyes about rolled out the back of her head. I could see them like marbles spinning [LAUGHTER]. I'm curious. What did you vote for? Emily Shaw: My vote was for Dutch Belted. John David Johnson: I was figuring that [OVERLAPPING]. Emily Shaw: We have discussed Dutch Belted before. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Let's get away from dairy. We do have to ask you your favorite beef breed, as well. We try not to do any crossbreeds [OVERLAPPING]. John David Johnson: You killing me. Dr. Joe Armstrong: I know. But I know you raise Baldies. Brad Heins: You got to have purebreds to have crossbreds. Dr. Joe Armstrong: I love the Baldies. I do. You're allowed to do a composite breed, which I don't know when we decided that was okay. But as long as it's a [OVERLAPPING] Emily Shaw: We didn't decide that. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Well, someone threw out a stabilizer last week and I'm still conflicted about it, but what is your favorite? I'd let you go with Baldy. If you wanted to choose Baldies that'd be fine. At least you get half [OVERLAPPING]. Emily Shaw: Okay, Joe, you just throwing all the rules out the window. John David Johnson: They're gone. All the rules are gone. It would be better as Dexters or something like that. I could throw out something strange, one of the ornamental cows. But now, I'll have to go with probably since the market Angus has been going so well in marketing, and they get the higher price. I'm like, everybody in agriculture goes where the money is. I'm going to go with Baldies but you can cover up a lot of sins with a Black bull, too. Dr. Joe Armstrong: We are on the same page. John David Johnson: Whatever goes. I'll go with a Black Baldy there. Emily Shaw: [OVERLAPPING] Who invited this guy? Dr. Joe Armstrong: I did. I think that well, that's a great choice. Black Baldy, we've got half Black Angus, then half of Brad's vote, which is for Hereford. Baldies have been around forever. They're a separate breed in my mind at this point. I'm throwing the rules out. I can do that. I produce some things. [LAUGHTER] That puts us at Black Angus with three Hereford with one, Chianina with one. You can guess who voted for Chianina. Brahman for one, Stabiliser with one, and now Black Baldies with one vote. Those are the important [OVERLAPPING]. Emily Shaw: Beef thing is just a hot mess now. Dr. Joe Armstrong: It's fine. I don't mind. It's fine. We've got the important questions out of the way. Now, I guess we should talk about what we're supposed to talk about. The differences between Minnesota and West Virginia. Let's start with Extension, because we're all in Extension, even in different states. You're an Agricultural County Agent, right, John David? You don't just do beef, even though that's your preferred topic? John David Johnson: No, I'm all in. I have to be pretty much well rounded, I guess you can say, as the older I get the more I look that way too, but we get questions from beef, cattle, and hay is obviously 75% of our agricultural income in the county. That's what I specialize in. That was my wheelhouse. I fit in very well here with the agricultural systems. But also, we're getting a lot more high tunnels. They extend that horticulture season up here in these cooler, higher elevations that we're in because there's a lot of people that are interested in agriculture that may not have the landscape to do so. We have a lot of hillsides. I wouldn't say useless land, but land that you really cannot occupy in an agricultural setting unless you're growing timber. That lands on those steeper hillsides. But other than that, we do have some really small bottoms and really good soil in it. Your low-lying soil silky lawns in this area. They can put up a high tone where they can not really be beneficial to run that many cattle or really cut that hay, but they could feed their family, increase that nutrition. Get a lot of gardening questions to go with that. Here's something right here. I want to reach out and grab this. I kept this and I've never taken it down. Let's see. May 16th, 2011. This little lady come in, Ms. Parper, and brought me this knockout rose leaf and little holes all in it. It's dead. It's been shrilled up. I put it up there because that was my first agricultural question in my job. Emily Shaw: I just want to cut in to say since we're not visual here, he literally has a little plastic baggy with this, like, decrepit old holy leaf in it. That's a great moment though. John David Johnson: For 10 years now I've been sitting up there collecting dust. But [inaudible] passed away, but she brought that in there. I tried to help her with insecticide protocols. We do a lot of, what's this fungus? What's this bug? Try to identify it if they do not have the insect or the plant. Then that's when we help them treat it after we identify it. That was my first farm question. But we get everything. What's wrong with my lawn? Why is there broomsedge all in my pastures, even though that I haven't limed in 20 years. We answer everything. Now, that's just on the ag side. Now, I have co-workers, family, and health agents. She answers the family and health questions. They even do like Read to Me Mommy, seminars where they go into the prisons and take the ladies reading books and then mail the tape to their kids, stuff like that. More family-based programs. Then adult and youth nutritionists that stay in the community or in the schools that talk about nutrition. I can work with them quite well because we're growing vegetables. I can work with the youth growing vegetables, and they take them and do the nutritional lessons. That works out good. Then one of the bigger programs along with AG is 4-H. WVU is a 4-H state. It amazed me coming from South Georgia where I was born. We had 4-H. I was in 4-H. In my state, you're in 4-H long enough to get into FFA. Then once you're in FFA, that carries you on through high school. But here they really bleed green. They have every county has their own 4-H camp. We have a camp every year with about anywhere 350-400 kids. At 4-H camp every year, and that's just my county. But that's great because all of them take a project, and a lot of those are animal-related projects. I have a county fair and just my county fair, we're looking at 500 plus animals. Brad Heins: Really? Wow. At a county fair? John David Johnson: At a county fair. I have 223 hogs alone. Emily Shaw: By comparison, Brad, how many dairy do you usually have at the Stevens County Fair? Brad Heins: Stevens County Fair, we have about 25 dairy and 40, 50 beef animals. John David Johnson: We don't do the dairy in my county. Now, Mason County next to us, they do have a dairy project. We do beef. We have beef steers, and we usually average anywhere 38-40, steers in the barn. Then we have a replacement heifer program and project, which they have to own the mother before she gives birth. It's called a breeding project, and the goats are in line with that, the rabbits are in that also that breeding project where they own that mother. They have to go through the whole birthing process. I like that project because it gives a whole another aspect of education. They see it pre and post-parturition. I really like that. I think those kids learn a lot from those projects specifically. That's a great project, that helps build a herd. They keep those heifers. Most of those heifers do not sell. They usually show multiple animals and only they can sell one animal that they shut. The only way they have to sell is if they get grand in reserve. I think we didn't sell this year, obviously. We had a little stock market sale. We're not counting that. Last year, each kid only selling one animal, we were about $665,000 sales with each kid selling about one animal. Emily Shaw: We've discussed this before, John David. There they sell the actual animal. John David Johnson: Yes, on Hoof. Emily Shaw: Yes, on Hoof, which is different. In Minnesota, they're called ribbon auctions. The local organizations in the county, they buy commemorative ribbon, basically. Then they get a picture of the kid and [OVERLAPPING]. But we don't do any actual sales of the animal. To me, that's an interesting difference. I do want to steer us back to the egg extension realm here. Since we have another Extension employee on, which we don't have Extension guests super often but when we had Michael J Cruz, PhD, for his [inaudible] episode. I had asked him, so I'm going to ask you, what's the most interesting question you've gotten or the most interesting call you have gotten [OVERLAPPING]? John David Johnson: The craziest or the intriest? Emily Shaw: Both. [LAUGHTER] John David Johnson: We start with the crazies. I always like the crazies. For some reason, I bring them in. They love it. Crazy is attracted to me, I do believe. With the craziest, I have a gentleman called Manson. I'm trying to get rid of ground moles. I said, Okay, well, there's different ways. There's pros and cons to all of them. He said, Well, I've tried everything. I've tried the bats. I've tried rolling. I've tried the shocking in them. I've tried trapping. I said, Hold on. Let's rewind. You tried shocking? Yes. I said, walk me through that process. You sparked my interest. I'm not familiar with this form of control. He said, Okay, well, I got a 110 line that was hooked straight to my breaker box. I went out there and I split it, and I said, I see the ground moving and I'd stick it in the ground. He said, The problem is the breaker kept breaking and tripping. [LAUGHTER] I'm just sitting there just like, Wow. I'm glad he called. This was a phone call, thank God. I'm just sitting there. There's not many moments that just render me speechless, but that was one of them. I said, Okay. That's good. But, I said, If the breaker wouldn't have tripped, you'd be dead. Our [inaudible]. That was the most. Then he went on to ask me if he could buy skunk because he wanted to skunk tape grubs, which he was on the right track, which the moles ate. I said, Well, you're probably going for a four-inch hole now instead of a little rise for the mole. That's the craziest question. The most interesting. Puzzled me there for a little bit. I had some gardens. Gardens on the same road dying. Everything was dying in the garden. I couldn't figure out why. Each of these three people called me separately and did not contact their neighbors that called me. I went out and after the third one, I said, This couldn't be a coincidence. There's something going on. All the plants are dying. I researched, and it went back to one farm they all bought their manure from that was using forefront. Their hay, the chemical was still active in forefront in the manure. They got the manure from the same producer. I explained to the producer there, you cannot let that manure leave your farm, for so long and got that corrected. But that was interesting. That was an investigation that we had to do. Dr. Joe Armstrong: I like stuff like that. Those questions keep you loving that job when you get to do little investigations and things like that to try to figure out what's going on. That's a good one. John David Johnson: That's when you finally actually figure it out. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Sometimes you never do, but when you can figure it out, it feels like you're making a difference and trying to figure out what's going on. That thing matters a lot to people. I'm always surprised at how much attention and how much people care about their garden and their gardening program. That's something at the University of Minnesota, we see a ton. We have a master gardener program, and that is a huge program. Consistently the number one reason people even visit the extension website online to look up gardening questions and treat trimming questions and things like that. It's a huge source. Well, let's talk cattle. We are on the Moos Eoom. We need to talk about this cattle. I've seen a couple of things from West Virginia as far as, like, what kind of programs you have out there. In Minnesota, we used to focus on trying to be in person with meetings and things like that. Now, since the world has turned upside down, we're doing more of this thing. We're online. We're working on articles. We're working on YouTube channels. We're working on the Moos Room here, the podcast, all sorts of different ways to connect. It looks like you guys have some pretty cool stuff going on, though at West Virginia. What do you got going with the beef side of things? John David Johnson: Right now, we're halfway through the process. We do a lot of board cells. We call them calf pools. What we do is we gather the producers up in regions, and they can join it or not join it. Of course, it's not a force program, it's a volunteer program. They all have the same management strategies weaning dates, vaccination patterns, types of vaccination. We all consult with the same veterinarian. That's where we get all vaccinations, dewormers, and everything else. We all have the same calving windows for these programs from anywhere from January to late March, April is the main calving windows for the spring calving. Now, this is, of course, the spring calving pool. We do not have fall calving pool which some producers have picked up and made their own little pool, and they have their own special cell. The stockyards, or they just deliver the calves at the stockyards at the same time and make their own cell. We do very well with in my county alone, that probably we're only looking about 700 calves to 800 on a really good year that's steers and heifers. But like this year, we sold them for well, let's see, we sold them on September 19, and we will deliver them to the stockyards to be put on semis and put loads together November 3rd and 4th. For instance you get that extra 60 days or so. Well, a little less than 60 days at that point. We wean for 60 days. We were 45 days, but that was a management decision we made as a group. You may always vote on its very producer input driven. We had a couple little issues there, and we said, Well, I think we can fix this problem by pushing that weaning 45-60 and to prove to our buyers that we're committed to that and preconditioning. We sell them there in September, and then we deliver them in November so you have that extra time to put a little bit of weight on them. I'm not sure if y'all's markets hold and stay as similar as ours, but usually in November into September, you'll see that market decline. But you sold them back in September 19th in this year. Usually the markets are a little higher so you still get that same price with holding those cattle over and putting that extra little bit of weight on them and preconditioning than in November as you did back then. If you look at the prices from November to September, compare those same prices when you deliver, usually make a little bit of money extra. Dr. Joe Armstrong: That's it. There's always a decline as there's more calves coming into the market so we see that in Minnesota as well. I love this idea, and being able to be a part of it is something that I had started to work on when I was in private practice with some of my producers and trying to put that thing together. But it's such a great idea to have to increase your power in the market by having a group of cattle that are marketed similarly or the same and then have the same background. It gives a lot of confidence to that buyer in that feed lot, being able to buy a big group, that they know the history and all those things that it really is taking what would be if they were all sold separately and then put together later. That would be a medium to high risk group depending on the management. Now you've taken it and created a super low risk group by having everyone on the same page and all those things. That is what people want on the feedlot side, low risk, and then being able to benefit both sides where you get to lock in the price for that producer on the cow calf side. I love the idea, I would love to get something going like that here in Minnesota. We'll just put it out there. Maybe someone will hear this on the podcast and tell me to run with it. We'll see. John David Johnson: Well, if not [OVERLAPPING] West Virginia buy some really good preconditioned double vaccinated weaned cows. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Double vaccinated. We can go to West Virginia to get them if we need to. You're saying that you're weaning for 60 days in that group. What do you mean by that? What does that mean when you say you're weaning for 60 days? John David Johnson: Well, we've of course pulled them off the mother, and we've already vaccinated. Usually give the vaccination the last day there at least. I like to actually vaccinate mine a little earlier, so it gets in their system before I move them off their mother. Of course, weaning is just pulling them off the cow. Every farm is set up probably the same in Minnesota, every production is different. But you have some that fence line wean, so they just move the cows on the other side of the fence. Some take the calves down the road to another farm, some put in I've even tried nose clips. Last year, I done that actually before I weaned, so I actually weaned a little more than 60 days, but it allowed that calf to stay on the side of that mother without sucking and transition his diet a little easier. They started eating grain a little bit quicker, I think, than they did this year. Where I took the mothers away, but I still left them two fall cow babysitters with them to try to pick up their habits and teach them how to eat out of that bunk a little smoother. There's different ways to do it. I do it differently. I'm extension agent, so I like to play with different methods, and I have that leniency to do that. But getting these cows on the set diet that we want them on, eating out of the bunk, drinking out of that trough where they go into these feed yards and they're already prepped and they're not standing around, just milling around, not eating, costing the feed yard money because when you drop them out the semi, the pot belly pulls up, you unload them. You want them to go out and start eating and not have that shipping fever, too that stress usually weaning is the highest stress in a calf's life or should. That's already out of the way that hopefully uphill from there as long as there's no problems in shipping you want that calf to hit the ground eating, and it's going to be a healthy calf. It's going to make that producer that buys it more money. Dr. Joe Armstrong: This is the ideal system for me. If I had the choice, I would want almost all cattle, all calves to be background that 60 days. It's really important. Bunk broke people don't think about it enough. Those calves need to be water broke too. Some of those cattle, especially if you're coming from out West, they don't know what a water looks like. They've never seen one in their life I think it's a huge deal it obviously pays. Especially when you pull these calves, you've got that power in the market to be able to get a certain price. I like the 60 days over 45. I'm always going to like 60 days over 45 because I think a true respiratory break from the stress of waning that day one, a true respiratory break is going to happen anywhere 28-42 days. At 45, you can still potentially see a respiratory break and if you go to 60, I just feel so much more comfortable that those calves are that much closer to being bulletproof. I'm a big fan that sounds like an amazing program. John David Johnson: You don't think about water you're just talking about knowing what that water trough is. Y'all probably see these out in the feed yards when I done an internship out in the panhandle of Oklahoma one year. Used to bump up the ration a little bit, make it a little hotter, little hotter, little hotter, where you want to hit that acidosis mark, and you want to push them, but don't push them too far, you want to get that residue in that bunk when you're reading that bunk. You don't want to look clean. You don't want it full, you want that residue. One day I come up, it's like 4:00 in the morning, and I hit the light, and there's a lot of feed in the bunk I was like, Oh crap, I'm in trouble I messed up the math, and I put them all in acidosis. Well, what happened a storm come through that night knocked out the water. They didn't have water, they don't eat. That's a big part of it. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Oh, it's a huge piece. We forget about it all the time. Obviously, in the winter, we tend to think about water a little more, just because we're checking water for freezing over and things like that. But you can't get away from it. It's the most important nutrient and like you said, it's directly tied to dry matter intake. If they don't have the water, they're not eating. No, the only other thing I had a question we were talking about this beforehand. There's not a whole lot of silage that gets made in West Virginia, when you guys are backgrounding these calves, are you putting in fermented feeds or is that something that happens? Do they feed fermented feeds in the feed lots in West Virginia? John David Johnson: They have some small feed lots. It's like in our bull cell or bull test. We are a forage based test, so they do a lot of horn silage there, haylage then some of the feeder or feed lots the smaller ones that we do have and the dairies, even the ones we do have, they are usually a corn silage based forage and nutritional plan there. But in the calf pool, we're mainly feeding and that's something we haven't really set a huge standard for amongst our producers, we let them choose what they want to feed and precondition. Some start the old jump start the pellet that's stampede. I always get tongue tied on that one, a little growth promotion there. I'm going with a 12% corn based I always start them off with a little bit of soybean pellet and soybean pellet to increase the fiber, then I take that away slowly like a feed lot ring would do. I do that because that's usually the most economical since I'm extension agent, I do not have the ability to have a large herd, so I have to make every dollar counts so that's just economical for me and that's the reason I do it. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Interesting to see, that's one of those things that in the backgrounding period, that's where the communication comes in between if you know where your cattle are going. I love any communication back and forth from the end to the beginning is helpful for everyone involved, we have a lot of backgrounding operations that are introducing fermented feeds just so that when they hit that feed lot and they see that silage, they don't turn their nose up. John David Johnson: It does take a little time for cows and now I do have one producer that does a lot of haylage so he'll get those rap bells and he'll put them out there, and after about a day or two, they eat them like candy. But you're right, you don't want to wait that day or two. If we do have a buyer that is interested and they do ask about that, we can put them into more calves that has been exposed to that haylage and they should transition really quick from haylage to silage. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Ah, let's see. What else do we want to talk about? You've mentioned the bull test quite a bit. Emily Shaw: Oh, yes, the bull test. Dr. Joe Armstrong: The bull test. Emily Shaw: I've always been confused by this, so maybe I'll get it this time. Dr. Joe Armstrong: When I say get your bull tested, I mean probably something completely different. John David Johnson: Oh, we do that, too. We do a breeding soundness exam on all these bulls. What is this program is for more seed stock operators. This wanting to sell breeding stock so they are able to bring and we have a heifer program, too, that runs right along with this. They bring their heifers or their bulls in, and we put them on feed for an x amount of number of days and then we weigh them every so many days. Then we take pelvic measurements. We take hip pipe. We take for the bulls scrotal circumference we do the muscle ultrasound. We do of course, breeding soundness so make sure that bull is ready to go out and breed cattle when you open that trailer door at your farm. We test all these bulls. We take a top portion of them, we have cut off lines on each of the categories, and as long as they're above those lines, we will put them in a cell, and operators around the state or cow calf operators can come by this local bulls that has been finished on a forage diet. I like the forage based diets in our area because they're going to go out on grass. They're not going to get grained all the time. They're not eating corn residue crops so it's more a little closer to what they would get at home. But they are young bulls and I think the biggest problem we have and we've done this and we keep trying to do this is educate the producer too when you buy young bull. Yes, we can say that a bull can service 25 cows. But a young bull that's fretting out of the gate, he's not ready to sire 25 cows put him with 12 cows. Twelve cows, he can take care of maybe even 15, but he is not to his mature state yet so give him a year or so and then increase your herd up a little bit for him. We do have bulls that go out and breed 25 cows, but what happens is what I say they say they melt, they lose body condition score, and they're just running themselves to death. If you buy a young bull, just keep that in mind. Don't start him off slow and then increase. I think that's more of an education for producers. We see that because I think we still have a little bit educated on that side. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Well, that's a great opportunity, having the cell to begin with and the test. That's my biggest question every time when I'm talking bull testing is, what does the nutrition look when you're in there and you're feeding them and you're just lobbing grain at them, and they're putting on weight, and it just makes me cringe every time. I hate fat bulls, I hate bad feed on bulls, you're ruining them. It's really good to hear you guys are doing it right. Like you said, the young bull thing is something that I struggled with in private practice. Everyone's always wanting to push that young bull really hard. To me, in the ideal world, I wouldn't even have my year ling bulls as part of the equation when I'm looking at bull power and numbers. I like to pair old bulls or mature bulls with really young bulls, and then don't count on that young bull to do much. If he does something great, if he doesn't it's not a big deal your mature bull's got it. Then, yeah, following the rules of thumb when you're looking at number of cows is going to be equal to that bull's age in months. If you're buying a 15 month old bull, then he should be able to cover 15 cows. But again, those yearlings, I like to cap it at 12, like John David was saying, so I think that's a huge program that you guys got going. Again, a great opportunity to talk to producers and just get people together to talk to them. John David Johnson: They love getting out. They come out early, look at all the bulls something they do is a little different at our test than other tests across the country is they have a contemporary group of thirty that each producer has to bring at least three bulls or heifers to the test, or you can't participate. I really like that contemporary group that makes your data strong, and that really brings it home. We can all feed out bulls. We can all put our cowboy hats on and go to a cell. But this actually is looking at the data behind it and strengthening it. I think if we're going to come out and we're going to pay good money for a bull, I think, all the data we can get should be as accurate as we can get. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Emily, do you have a question? I saw you. Emily Shaw: I actually was gonna put Bradley on the spot because he's really, really, really quiet. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Do it. Emily Shaw: Bradley, ask a question. Brad Heins: I am. I've been waiting. I've been listening. Actually, I'm interested in, you talk about. Dr. Joe Armstrong: That was our wrap on our first half of our conversation with John David Johnson from West Virginia. We will be back to finish our conversation, talk a lot more about the differences when we're talking about pasture and what types of grasses that we use in our different states and how we utilize those resources. Check out the website, extension.umn.edu scathing and rebuttals, comments, questions any of that goes to the mooseroom@umn.edu that's T-H-E-M-O-O-S- R-O-O-M @umn.edu. Check us out on Facebook @umnbeef and at umndairy. Catch you next week, everybody. Emily Shaw: See you. Dr. Joe Armstrong: Bye. Brad Heins: I tried to move my chair on carpet, and I freaking fell out of it.